Islamic reformation possible?

[Shiranu]

The Inquisition is a few centuries past.

Never said they weren't.

Christians don't burn people as witches.

Uh, you sure about that? Maybe not always burnt, they are chopped up with machetes and knives as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/centralafricanrepublic/12018588/Christian-militias-in-Central-African-Republic-burnt-witches-at-stake-says-UN-report.html

https://www.seeker.com/seven-accused-african-witches-burned-to-death-1769174209.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29572974

Hindu/Moslem massacres are reduced in numbers.

For now, but the conflict between India and Pakistan is starting to heat up again, Kashmir is pushing more and more for independence (which will cause more tension amongst the two +Sikhs and Buddhist in the region), violence in Sri Lanka is off-and-on, and India is currently lead by a PM who was a recognized terrorist and who instigated the slaughter and arrest of thousands of Muslims in Gujarat a few years ago.

Actually, if either side is closer to being the one pushing for peace amongst the majority, it's Pakistan. Politically not so much due to the sheer corruption of the country, but the average Pakistanis I have met seems sick and tired of the constant violence and just want to be left alone to live a normal life. It's India, and particularly Modi and the Hindu Nationalists, who have been stirring up trouble when ever they get a chance domestically.

I could go on, but you get the point; there is still ALOT of religious violence outside of Islam, we just don't pay as much attention to it because it's not aimed at us. Which goes to my second point...

Except for Islam, yes.  But even then, Islam in Europe and the US is being moderated by the general civil society.

...this needs a caveat, even after the but; Islam in a select few Middle Eastern countries. The majority of Muslim countries are either neutral or moderate, it's just a few that we have directly politically influenced that are causing issues; Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan (who then export their radical beliefs to their neighbours). All three of the biggest instigators of Islamic violence were put into power either as Western puppets or in the overthrowing of Western puppets.

So while you can blame Islam, which it certainly has a large role in the consolidation of power for leaders and exerting their will amongst diverse populations, the real underlying blame has to be aimed at the Cold War policies of England, the United States ,and the Soviet Union as they installed dictator after dictator in the Middle East to protect their interests and hurt the other's.

Islam, like any other religion, has a natural tendency to ebb and flow, and that flow appears to be heading towards moderation when allowed to. However radicalism is heavily benefited and supported by the major powers, who in turn are backed by Western influences... the short of the long is that it is an extremely complex situation, and we cant say that Islam is the sole, or even root, cause of political instability in a region intentionally politically destablised for the last hundred years by foreign powers and internal forces looking to get ahead.

[pr126]

Shiranu wrote:

Islam, like any other religion, has a natural tendency to ebb and flow, and that flow appears to be heading towards moderation when allowed to.

No, not at all.
When Islam is weak, or small in numbers they keeping their heads down, being "moderate". 
When they are strong, [in numbers, money, ] they attack and become fighters for the cause.

This was Muhammad's modus operandi from the very beginning. And still done this way today.

Case in point.
In the USA they are small in numbers in relation to non-Muslim population. They seem well behaved. There, they have a different approach. They are embedded in the institutions, in the government, schools, even in the WH. No need for terror.

In Europe, there are over 50 million Muslims so they are much more "active" with terrorism, rapes, crimes.

Strength in numbers.

If you remember, I mentioned the Mekkan and Medinan verses in the Quran where the Mekkan verses were abrogated by later more violent verses. That's how Islam works.

Why the concept of abrogation?

Abrogation is the only way that Muslims can reconcile such contradictions in a book which is supposed to be the eternal and infallible word of god.

[Ibn Khaldun]

Would you consider the possibility that Islam has already been reformed and reformed to as far as it can possibly be reformed and what you have now is the no frills version  ,beyond which Islam would lose its reason to exist ?

[Unbeliever]

Islam, like Christianity and other cruel and evil fictions, has no reason to exist.

[Baruch]

Islam, like Christianity and other cruel and evil fictions, has no reason to exist.

If cruel and evil fictions didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them.  And we did.

[Mike Cl]

If cruel and evil fictions didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them.  And we did.

The most heinous is called organized religion.  So far christianity has been the most destructive.

[Shiranu]

So far christianity has been the most destructive.

I would like to see the actual numbers on that (from reputable sources)... I have my hunch Islam comes relatively close. If it wasn't for Europe's need to explore and then discover the New World, it probably would lose out to what the Muslims did in India and Africa.

I thought it out loud and then erased it... but if you look at the damage Christianity did in the New World, Africa and parts of Asia, it's hard to image Islam actually is close in terms of damage done. It just depends what side of the pond you are on; the destruction Christianity has caused isn't as relevant to a British person as it is an American in the South, for example, in regards to both racial damage (Natives/Hispanics + African Americans) and cultural damage. But in terms of just sheer numbers... I have a hard time believing Islam has done as much damage in Africa and India (with Africa being contested by Christian violence as well, so really only India is it's major zone) as Christianity has done in Latin America... and I say that as someone who is something of a Latin americaphile.

[Mike Cl]

I would like to see the actual numbers on that (from reputable sources)... I have my hunch Islam comes relatively close. If it wasn't for Europe's need to explore and then discover the New World, it probably would lose out to what the Muslims did in India and Africa.

I thought it out loud and then erased it... but if you look at the damage Christianity did in the New World, Africa and parts of Asia, it's hard to image Islam actually is close in terms of damage done. It just depends what side of the pond you are on; the destruction Christianity has caused isn't as relevant to a British person as it is an American in the South, for example, in regards to both racial damage (Natives/Hispanics + African Americans) and cultural damage. But in terms of just sheer numbers... I have a hard time believing Islam has done as much damage in Africa and India (with Africa being contested by Christian violence as well, so really only India is it's major zone) as Christianity has done in Latin America... and I say that as someone who is something of a Latin americaphile.

I have not done a hard study of the matter.  But considering christianity is quite a bit older I'd say, with that head start, it is ahead of Islam.  But then, Islam is coming on strong lately; who knows when they will pass christanity.  Too bad either one has to exist.

[Ibn Khaldun]

@ Unbeliever. These religions are going to be around long after you’re gone.infact religion will still be around after the extinction of mankind. Until such time ,ebola doesn’t say religion has no reason to exist . ebola says you have no reason to exist . think about that  .


I think the phrase   â€œreform or reformed  religion “ is unintelligible.  There hasn’t been any reform of religions that I can see . What happened some people backed Luther. The common man went along . the reform was reform of mind not religion. And those reforms in minds revolved on stuff like  , for example that is , who gets the authority to catechize, not the catechism per say  .and the changes in the catechism are not that impactful not even when you consider furthest on the spectrum liberal protestants .

Christianity and reform of the mind go together . Christianity was built that way . new testament is loose document pretty much like the American constitution..add to that the bible has the Christian god point to a  Roman centurion, a pagan, as faith   incomparable in all Israel back then. Fact of the matter the Christian god would call some atheist as paragon of faith and belief and give them a pat and on the shoulder and on you go guys through the golden gate ...

I was talking more in terms of Islam in terms of Quran with one third of it omitted and haddith graded - reform stufff ,and  of Islam  being out there to supplant Christianity coupled with the Republican brothers , followers of Mahmood Mohammed Taha , who having discarded all the hijra suras are now running around today  talking about  Christian Mohmmedian message !!!! in that respect reform of Islam returned it back to the  cult it was and  that came  from the cult it was derived from -ice Christianity . Hence  loss of reason to exist .Got it ? carry on.

Organized religion is bad ? but isn’t chaos the very problem with Islam ??? organized is better , easier to grabble with . Islam thrives through disorganization.  chameleon is the issue.

One other thing , when you do the numbers  remember the world was merely 40 million at inception of Islam. So a kill back then scores more points than today

There is video that details the killing fields . I’ll see if I can find it .

I think I’m now few post to ten. Humor me .

[Munch]

Well Ibn, your first statements silly, because the nature of religion is a human construct, and whatever causes mankind to be wiped out would likely also wipe out any evidence of religion too.

Also isn't it a ironic to claim religion can't reform, when you just later mentioned the reforms to Christianity. Reformation is not the destruction of an idea but reshaping it into something, in religions case, more manageable, this is why the west doesn't live in a theocracy, something past civilizations did do, such as the power the church had over everything back then.

[Baruch]

Well Ibn, your first statements silly, because the nature of religion is a human construct, and whatever causes mankind to be wiped out would likely also wipe out any evidence of religion too.

Also isn't it a ironic to claim religion can't reform, when you just later mentioned the reforms to Christianity. Reformation is not the destruction of an idea but reshaping it into something, in religions case, more manageable, this is why the west doesn't live in a theocracy, something past civilizations did do, such as the power the church had over everything back then.

Terminology fail.  Not Reformation, Enlightenment.  Luther was an authoritarian too ... pro-German instead of pro-Rome.

[Ibn Khaldun]

@ Munch…….You’re being raciest. My dog has a religion. He prays everyday.

I think a little humility is called for on your part. You should go find a plant and get down on your knees and talk to it .it will be good for you. Trust me on that .

Yes there will be religion after you’re gone .

Render to Caesar  what belongs to Caesar ….. that’s one thing.

There was always a healthy detachment in Europe. The people owed their allegiance to the king more so than the pope. it was kings and their subjects

in the Islamic empire , the sultan sent a stranger to rule any given people. one of his inner circle guys . the people in the area hated the guy guts .

it was not a theocracy in the Islamic empire. The Sultan was always on top. If the ulema gave him a hard time he withheld the money from the awqaf . if they behaved and did his bidding he released the money

. what is taking place in Iran is an anomaly. Welliyat  al Faqih or  Velliyat  al faqih .not good .spells big trouble. the iranian regime must be removed .

I was talking reform of mind not religion. Read again please. I’ll appreciate if you don’t put words in my mouth again. I forgive you. Jesus says to forgive you. I’m good catholic person. Go much you are forgiven . I pardon  thee.

you may call me silly. it is a pleasure to be insulted by someone like you.

[pr126]

Ibn Khaldun wrote:

These religions are going to be around long after you’re gone.infact religion will still be around after the extinction of mankind.

Religion is an idea, man made.
When there is no more human to hold that idea, there is no more religion.

There is no religion on the other planets of the solar system except earth.
There may be in the future if man settles on them.

There are thousands of gods, religions that are no longer practiced, they are already extinct.

[pr126]

Ibn Khaldun, I think you are a fraud.

Welcome to the forum.

[Mike Cl]

@ Unbeliever. These religions are going to be around long after you’re gone.infact religion will still be around after the extinction of mankind. Until such time ,ebola doesn’t say religion has no reason to exist . ebola says you have no reason to exist . think about that  .

This is old material for us here.  But the atheists here know there is no reason or purpose to our existence.  To be exact, if anybody desires to have a reason or purpose for their life, then they have to supply it, for the universe does not care one way or the other.  Most of us embrace that way of thinking.  You see, your god is simply a fiction you chose to believe in; apparently you need a reason to live and so you adopted a fiction to believe in.  If it makes you feel better, go for it!