Islamic reformation possible?

[Baruch]

Reformation of Islam in inevitable.  All religions eventually relax.  Islam is just a new one and will take time.  That doesn't mean they aren't a problem today.  But no more than the Christian fanatics in the days of the Inquisition.

All religions are crazy.

Catholic Church -> WWI and WWII.  That is recently.  They also cooperated with the Juntas to suppress freedom in Latin America and recycled pedophiles.  They are still crazy.  Poop on the Pope.

[Baruch]

You are basing your assumption on wishful thinking.

Omega point - all humans evolve into San Francisco dwelling snowflakes.  Atheists and liberals are so ... deluded.  Each generation starts over ... I see this in my daughter ... children never take advice from parents, they have to repeat all our mistakes.

[Baruch]

The Sufi form of Islam, which involves personal pietism, prefers to stay out of politics ... because Sufis are "marginal Muslims" to the Muslim establishment.  This was the dominant form for over 200 years, until WWI radicalized them (see Napoleon and later Lawrence of Arabia).  The Amish are subversive of secular Statism ... but they aren't militant ... think of the Sufis as Amish in a turban.

[pr126]

Actually, the Sufi has no different Islam than the other ones. Just as blood thirsty hater of kuffar.
Incidentally, the Sunnis hate them.

There are the Ahmadiyas however, who reject violence but nevertheless proselytize for Islam.

In Pakistan, Ahmadiyas are declared by the state as non-Muslims. Persecuted and sometimes killed.

Pakistan had one Nobel prize winner Mohamed Abdus Salam (Physics)  an Ahmadya Muslim, 1926-1996 his grave was desecrated by the moderate and peaceful Muslims.

[Cavebear]

You are basing your assumption on wishful thinking.

I seldom "wishful think" unless reading deliberate sci-fi (willful suspension of disbelief).  All religions start out firm and slowly give way to human reality.  The Jews were originally (by their texts) murderous sons of bitches.  The Christians were murderous in their early times (after taking control of Europe), and the Moslems are about on the same schedule.  Give them another 500 years or so and they will be all like the Christians are now.  Time wears out fanaticism give or take a few pockets of crazies.

[pr126]

The way the "crazies" are progressing now, I don't think we will have 500 years of navel gazing, waiting for Islam to mellow.

The world will go up in flames pretty soon the way things are going.
As I have said before, the "moderates" don't drive Islam, the fanatics do.
The silent majority are waiting to see who will prevail.

[Baruch]

Actually, the Sufi has no different Islam than the other ones. Just as blood thirsty hater of kuffar.
Incidentally, the Sunnis hate them.

There are the Ahmadiyas however, who reject violence but nevertheless proselytize for Islam.

In Pakistan, Ahmadiyas are declared by the state as non-Muslims. Persecuted and sometimes killed.

Pakistan had one Nobel prize winner Mohamed Abdus Salam (Physics)  an Ahmadya Muslim, 1926-1996 his grave was desecrated by the moderate and peaceful Muslims.

Sufis in the Middle Ages could be fanatic, some sects.  The Naqshbandi are still militant, they helped found the Taliban, who in turn oppose Sufism.  The Salafist influence grew out of Saudi Arabia and the Muslem Brotherhood in Egypt.  So I can tell one from another, based on anecdotes of Muslims from prior generations.  Their first thought wasn't to go West and kill Christians etc back then.  You can thank the Soviet Union for part of this, invading Afghanistan, and secularizing Baath regime countries and Nasser's Egypt.  All part of the Cold War.

[Baruch]

I seldom "wishful think" unless reading deliberate sci-fi (willful suspension of disbelief).  All religions start out firm and slowly give way to human reality.  The Jews were originally (by their texts) murderous sons of bitches.  The Christians were murderous in their early times (after taking control of Europe), and the Moslems are about on the same schedule.  Give them another 500 years or so and they will be all like the Christians are now.  Time wears out fanaticism give or take a few pockets of crazies.

The Catholic Christians were Roman pagans, pretending at monotheism.  Mafia with a cross.  Many Christians would still skin you alive, if they could.  Your idea of progress is hopeful self deception.

[Cavebear]

The way the "crazies" are progressing now, I don't think we will have 500 years of navel gazing, waiting for Islam to mellow.

The world will go up in flames pretty soon the way things are going.
As I have said before, the "moderates" don't drive Islam, the fanatics do.
The silent majority are waiting to see who will prevail.

Well, maybe the Moslems will "mature" faster.  Everything seems more accelerated these day. 

But my point was that all religions were crazier and more violent when the started.  Not that current events in any theistic cultures are encouraging.  And when I read about "revenge rapes" and "honor killings" in places of the older religions, I doubt my own hypothesis.  Religious fanatics are everywhere.

Worse, an article I read recently (newspaper?  magazine?) suggests that there are way fewer real atheists than I thought.

OK, lets all take a pill and see if cats or something evolve to do a better job...

[Baruch]

Well, maybe the Moslems will "mature" faster.  Everything seems more accelerated these day. 

But my point was that all religions were crazier and more violent when the started.  Not that current events in any theistic cultures are encouraging.  And when I read about "revenge rapes" and "honor killings" in places of the older religions, I doubt my own hypothesis.  Religious fanatics are everywhere.

Worse, an article I read recently (newspaper?  magazine?) suggests that there are way fewer real atheists than I thought.

OK, lets all take a pill and see if cats or something evolve to do a better job...

Get off!  Cats are already evolved!

[pr126]

Unfortunately, Islam is a religion like no other.

Firstly, it is not just a religion but a complete system, political, law, state.
The religion is there to command obedience and cohesion.
The state and religion are inseparable.

The Islamic memeplex

[Cavebear]

Unfortunately, Islam is a religion like no other.

Firstly, it is not just a religion but a complete system, political, law, state.
The religion is there to command obedience and cohesion.
The state and religion are inseparable.

The Islamic memeplex

OK, I actually agree with you.  Islam is currently the craziest religion.  But that isn't saying a whole lot for the others.  The bar isn't set very high.  Hindus massacre moslems.  Moslems kill christians, christians kill anyone who isn't one of them and everyone kill judaists. 

Joke:

In a closed room, a jew, a moslem and a christian are circling each other with knives waiting for a chance to stab.  Suddenly an atheist is pushed into the room.  The three immediately join hands saying "Kill The Infidel"!

Another joke...

A person visited Ireland in "The Time Of Troubles"".  He was warned about walking the streets at night.  But he had a plan.  He would just say he was jewish.  So he is walking along and suddenly there is a knife at his throat and the person say's "declare your religion".  He squeaks "I'm jewish".  And the attacker says ...

"I must be the luckiest Arab in Ireland"!

Hey, if you can't laugh at absurdity, you're already dead...  And the whole religious world is absurdity.

[Shiranu]

Unfortunately, Islam is a religion like no other.

Firstly, it is not just a religion but a complete system, political, law, state.

Uhhh... Hinduism under Modi? Catholicism in much of South and Central America? Protestantism in parts of the South and amongst several Congressmen and Senators (and Presidential candidates)? Tribalism Christianity in Africa? Hard line Judaism in Israel?

And that's just modern day examples, you don't have to go back even a hundred years to see examples of religions being the primary force of political and social power.

[Cavebear]

Uhhh... Hinduism under Modi? Catholicism in much of South and Central America? Protestantism in parts of the South and amongst several Congressmen and Senators (and Presidential candidates)? Tribalism Christianity in Africa? Hard line Judaism in Israel?

And that's just modern day examples, you don't have to go back even a hundred years to see examples of religions being the primary force of political and social power.

The Inquisition is a few centuries past.  Christians don't burn people as witches.  Hindu/Moslem massacres are reduced in numbers.  Jews can live in many places without daily fear. in current times.

That doesn't sound like much, but consider a few centuries ago or even 7 decades ago.  As bad as things seem, they are getting better.  There was a time when hindus had the assassin societies.  That has faded.

Except for Islam, yes.  But even then, Islam in Europe and the US is being moderated by the general civil society.

Theists are all crazy, but violence from the more organized religions fades.  I would still like them to disappear of course, and I'm certain they will someday.  Not in my lifetime, but someday it will happen.

I expect that SOME DAY, there will be a last theist.  Her children will miss Gramma, but not be infected with the fear of a deity.

[Baruch]

Unfortunately, Islam is a religion like no other.

Firstly, it is not just a religion but a complete system, political, law, state.
The religion is there to command obedience and cohesion.
The state and religion are inseparable.

The Islamic memeplex

Until Jews were let out of the ghetto, we functioned the same way ... all encompassing system run by Jewish elders (kosher imams).