Author Topic: Islamic reformation possible?  (Read 1221 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2017, 07:22:07 AM »
What people want to say is Enlightenment, European secular progressivism ... like being a French atheist like Rousseau or a French leader like Robespierre.  Reformation Luther wasn't a Progressive, he was a Wahabi ... same as they current regime in KSA or Iran.  Reform involves puritanism.  The Arabs had their Reformation back in 1700s with imam Wahab.

What Luther wanted was an Apocalypse, with Germany at the head of it, and himself at the head of Germany ... which is why Hitler found him so useful, particularly his hatred of Jews.  KSA probably also wants an apocalypse, with only Arabs surviving.  In particular they want ethnic Indian and Indonesian Muslims dead ... and Persian Muslims dead too.  Don't forget they want the Turkish Muslims dead, since at least 1914.  This is why they foment terrorism and civil war in Muslim countries.  The new heir of the kingdom, will be the king soon (the old man is dying) and he is a war hawk, with everyone.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2017, 07:24:59 AM »
"The simple truth is in a modern world, with modern resources, people will adopt a modern way of life."

Shiranu ... you are in the Matrix, you are not Neo, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.  Your Marxism is so ... 19th century man.

Reformed Islam wants all non-Muslims dead, even all non-Arab Muslims.  Reformed Islam is actually worse that Medieval Islam ... just as Christian Reformation was worse than Catholic Medievalism.  You want Enlightenment ... but we aren't all turning into Rousseau or Robespierre for you.
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Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2017, 09:20:57 AM »
I think Shiranu is being "schooled" on Islam by his Muslim friends.
He does claim to know Islam well, but the knowledge comes from Muslims, rather than the Muslim text themselves.
After all, they are Muslims, and who should know Islam better?

And they wouldn't lie to him, would they?

For example, he claimed that FGM is not Islamic. But the Hadiths and Sharia clearly states that it is.

Well, Islamic apologist is a dime a dozen. Muslims and non-Muslims.

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet." - Barak Hussein Obama.

I wonder what he thinks of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah (The biography of Muhammad)?
Or as I call it "The little book of Horrors".


Ibn Ishaq: The Life of Muhammad

 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:59:33 PM by pr126 »
‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2017, 09:41:15 AM »
Quote
He does claim to know Islam well, but the knowledge comes from Muslims, rather than the Muslim text themselves.

I must of missed where the Qu'ran is not a Muslim text.


I'm sorry, but your so consistently just factually wrong that it's like a kindergarderner telling you that physics is just, "1+1 and you have the answer! Anyone who thinks that is wrong is dumb!". From someone who might actually know something about what they are talking about, that might be offensive, but from you it's just kinda sad.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 09:46:27 AM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2017, 09:47:37 AM »
Start here, Shiranu: Islam 101

Download it onto your computer and read in your own time.

I am sure you won't read it. It is contrary to your preconceived ideas.
Willful ignorance.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:00:56 PM by pr126 »
‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2017, 12:47:47 PM »
Its the social contract ... children take out contracts on adults, women take out contracts on men, colored folk take out contracts on White folk ...
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Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2017, 06:07:07 PM »
Difference between Islam and Christianity ... not between Bible and Quran



A good analysis ... and also a tie-in to post-Christian behavior not being savage ... because it is Stoic
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2017, 06:20:36 PM »
Start here, Shiranu: Islam 101

Download it onto your computer and read in your own time.

I am sure you won't read it. It is contrary to your preconceived ideas.
Willful ignorance.


You're right, I won't read it. Though to be fair, that's because it is a broken link...
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 06:41:18 PM »
You're right, I won't read it. Though to be fair, that's because it is a broken link...

Here is the corrected link ...

https://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101

Didn't take an IT genius to find it.

Not an endorsement of it ... neither do I support Medieval Christianity nor Medieval Judaism.  But at least Medieval Jews were concerned about ethics, unlike the Gentiles.
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 06:44:30 PM »
Here is the corrected link ...

https://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101

Didn't take an IT genius to find it.

Not an endorsement of it ... neither do I support Medieval Christianity nor Medieval Judaism.  But at least Medieval Jews were concerned about ethics, unlike the Gentiles.

On my phone at work, so didn't have time for that. I'll check it in a bit.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 10:44:42 PM »
On my phone at work, so didn't have time for that. I'll check it in a bit.

So prehistoric ... you "phone people".  Kind of like iHomo eHabilus.  Pretty soon the giant screen people will evolve into a separate species from the tiny screen people ;-)
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Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2017, 12:08:55 AM »
The mistake some people make is conflating “Islam” the ideology and “Muslim” the identity.
Islam is a religion; it’s a set of beliefs, a bunch of ideas in a book. It’s not human.
 
Muslims are real, living, breathing people, and there’s a big difference between criticizing ideas and demonizing human beings.

If one criticizes those set of ideas, is automatically accused of demonizing the people holding those ideas.

That person is immediately declared a bigot, hater, an Islamophobe.

All other ideas are open to discussion, examination, criticism.
Except for this one. The question is why?
Answer: because we are scared. Now that is Islamophobia.





« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 02:28:46 AM by pr126 »
‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Munch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2017, 04:18:31 AM »
Shiranu, I need to ask you this, before I head to work, what is your opinion of women in burka's, both in the middle east and those wearing them in the west.

I'll get back to this later.

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2017, 05:05:18 AM »
Shiranu wrote:
Quote
I must of missed where the Qu'ran is not a Muslim text.

I doubt that you have read the entire Quran and understood its message.

You have been probably reading passages approved for you by your Muslim friends.
The other passages are "explained away" sanitized, white washed, with taqiyya and kitman for you.

Are you aware of the principle of abrogation? The later violent verses are abrogating (canceling) the earlier, more peaceful verses.

In effect, there are two Qurans in one, the Mekkan, and Medinan chapters. When Muhammad was starting out his religion he was more conciliatory.
Later when he had his followers and army, he became more violent and war like. So the concept of abrogation was implemented because verses cannot be deleted once "revealed".
See verse Q 2:106

Also a word about context.

The Quran is not arranged in chronological order but in the order of chapter size.
It starts with the longest chapters and proceeds by size to the shortest one.

But Muslims are also commanded to obey the Hadiths and the Sharia.
Then there is the Sira, the life of Muhammad.

Without the Hadiths, the Quran doesn't make much sense, as most of the Islamic customs are not in the Quran.
For example how to perform ritual washing and prayers, etc.

Then there are the many volumes of Tafsirs explaining the meanings by chapter and verse in the Quran.

The Quran claims to be clear and easy to understand. But it is nothing of the sort.
That is why the tafsirs needed.


Quran 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the last day”

Fight not because of self defence, but because of what they believe.

“Even if they are people of the book - Christians and Jews - until they pay the jizya (protection money) and feel themselves subdued” (second class).

There is no expiration day to this, the Quran is eternal.


« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 05:56:26 AM by pr126 »
‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2017, 06:32:49 AM »
Pr126 ... you know Islam better than most Muslims.  I know Christianity better than most Christians.  So by now, given your obsession ... you should be Muslim yourself.  My excuse is I was married to a Christian woman.  I am glad you bake bread etc ... while not studying Islam.

I think you have things backward ... I don't condemn ideas, like infective memes.  Entertaining ideas is something I am comfortable with.  Free thought and free speech.  I condemn the behavior (beyond speech), not the ideas that people hold.  And therefore I condemn individual humans, including individual Muslims.  Otherwise, I would want to genocide all Germans (as holders of the meme of Germaneness) ... which is inconsistent because I am part German.

But I understand where you are coming from.  And I join you in condemning identity politics and virtue signaling.  The idea that we must tolerate all human behavior ... is self destructive.  Some behavior is criminal, even collectively criminal.
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