Author Topic: Islamic reformation possible?  (Read 1259 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #135 on: August 31, 2017, 10:06:49 AM »
What if I told you that the two examples you mentioned were not Christians, but Muslims?
Musab Masmari

Not exactly Christian names, are they?

I was off my thoughts...

OK, the Crusades and Inquisition and witch-burnings are sufficent.  So were the Christian conquests of the Americas.  Forcible conversions and all that. 

Am I back on the logic circuit now?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #136 on: August 31, 2017, 10:23:08 AM »
I was off my thoughts...

OK, the Crusades and Inquisition and witch-burnings are sufficent.  So were the Christian conquests of the Americas.  Forcible conversions and all that. 

Am I back on the logic circuit now?
Not quite. I would like you to keep to the 20th - 21st century, if you please.

What matters is the here and now. We can't change the past.
We can only learn from it.

‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #137 on: August 31, 2017, 10:32:27 AM »
Not quite. I would like you to keep to the 20th - 21st century, if you please.

What matters is the here and now. We can't change the past.
We can only learn from it.

Diachronic vs synchronic thinking.  Muslims are synchronic ... it is always 632 CE, Friday, Noon.  They exist in holy eternity, time has stopped, like when Joshua prayed for the Sun to stop moving across the sky.  Westerners are diachronic ... this is because of the Catholic Church daily prayer cycle, which required mechanical clocks to synchronize all Catholics across Europe, to make the recitation of the daily Hours ... more magically powerful.

So for a devout Muslim, everything that happened in the past, is happening right now.  Extreme diachronism ... if a terrorist isn't killing right now, then they aren't murderous.  They are only murderous at the moment of killing.  Both are ... dysfunctional.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #138 on: August 31, 2017, 11:05:01 AM »
Not quite. I would like you to keep to the 20th - 21st century, if you please.

What matters is the here and now. We can't change the past.
We can only learn from it.

But we CAUSED the past, which is the presentt.  Well, theists anyway.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #139 on: August 31, 2017, 11:06:40 AM »
Diachronic vs synchronic thinking.  Muslims are synchronic ... it is always 632 CE, Friday, Noon.  They exist in holy eternity, time has stopped, like when Joshua prayed for the Sun to stop moving across the sky.  Westerners are diachronic ... this is because of the Catholic Church daily prayer cycle, which required mechanical clocks to synchronize all Catholics across Europe, to make the recitation of the daily Hours ... more magically powerful.

So for a devout Muslim, everything that happened in the past, is happening right now.  Extreme diachronism ... if a terrorist isn't killing right now, then they aren't murderous.  They are only murderous at the moment of killing.  Both are ... dysfunctional.

And in the US South, it is always 2pm at Gettysburg when Picket's charge began.  And they keep hoping it will succeed.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #140 on: August 31, 2017, 12:43:10 PM »
And in the US South, it is always 2pm at Gettysburg when Picket's charge began.  And they keep hoping it will succeed.

And Yankees still are impaling Southern babies on their bayonets?  See, this kind of prejudice is ... bidirectional.  Yes, Picket messed up, but he was only following Lee's incompetent orders.  Lee wasn't much, if Stonewall wasn't there, and by that time, he wasn't.

BTW - Lincoln died, Davis survived.  Reconstruction failed, to be followed by 100 years of Jim Crow.  Who won?
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #141 on: August 31, 2017, 03:14:27 PM »
And Yankees still are impaling Southern babies on their bayonets?  See, this kind of prejudice is ... bidirectional.  Yes, Picket messed up, but he was only following Lee's incompetent orders.  Lee wasn't much, if Stonewall wasn't there, and by that time, he wasn't.

BTW - Lincoln died, Davis survived.  Reconstruction failed, to be followed by 100 years of Jim Crow.  Who won?

The South mostly won.  They just had to pay their slaves a pittance afterwards.  The North should have CRUSHED the South.  But then look at Europe and all the ancient hatreds still alive.  Actually, there is no good solution to civil war.  Heads you lose, tails you lose.  You need the coin to land on edge.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #142 on: August 31, 2017, 08:33:52 PM »
The South mostly won.  They just had to pay their slaves a pittance afterwards.  The North should have CRUSHED the South.  But then look at Europe and all the ancient hatreds still alive.  Actually, there is no good solution to civil war.  Heads you lose, tails you lose.  You need the coin to land on edge.

And Genghis Khan, instead of raping most women in Asia, should have raped every woman on Earth?  With Lincoln, the coin did land on the edge, but neither disappointed South nor radical North ... could tolerate his humanity.  It was necessary for both sides to make a martyr of him .. same as Kennedy.  As a legend under the control of "the Narrative" .. he is much more useful dead than alive.  See Jesus for another example.  A living Jesus would totally discredit Christianity.
שלום

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #143 on: August 31, 2017, 10:52:05 PM »
A living Jesus would totally discredit Christianity.
So does a fictional one.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #144 on: September 01, 2017, 08:42:12 AM »
So does a fictional one.

Yes, but it is magically possible, thru hermeneutics to query a fictional Jesus than a living one in your living room and get the answers you expect ;-)
שלום

Offline Munch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #145 on: September 01, 2017, 09:38:27 AM »
Yes, but it is magically possible, thru hermeneutics to query a fictional Jesus than a living one in your living room and get the answers you expect ;-)

Oh you mean like a singing cod wall mount, but instead of a cod its Jesus' head?

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2017, 03:03:26 PM »
Oh you mean like a singing cod wall mount, but instead of a cod its Jesus' head?

Well the original would have been Pisces ... so two singing cods are required ;-)
שלום

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #147 on: September 01, 2017, 03:18:18 PM »
Nah, "Cavebear is from 'Clan Of The Cave Bear' by Jean Auel".  You didn't know that?  Well. probably cuz it wasn't in the bible...
I read those long ago, and enjoyed them. I may even read them again someday. I liked the characters, but I only remember Jondalar, I think his name was.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 04:56:30 PM by Unbeliever »
God Not Found
"Never criticize someone unless you've walked a mile in his shoes. Then when you criticize him at least you'll be a mile away - and you'll have his shoes."
Ray Magliozzi
"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted at all."

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #148 on: September 02, 2017, 12:25:03 AM »
I read those long ago, and enjoyed them. I may even read them again someday. I liked the characters, but I only remember Jondalar, I think his name was.

Just another nice guy stuck in the friend zone?
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2017, 02:25:05 AM »
I read those long ago, and enjoyed them. I may even read them again someday. I liked the characters, but I only remember Jondalar, I think his name was.

Ayla was the main character.  Orphaned as a 5 year old Cro Magnon, adopted by Neandertals.  Went off alone, met Jondalar, learned speech, etc.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!