Author Topic: Islamic reformation possible?  (Read 810 times)

Offline pr126 (OP)

Islamic reformation possible?
« on: August 02, 2017, 11:15:07 AM »
Yes, reformation is in progress now right before our eyes.
Reforming back to its original form. As Muhammad intended.

We can proudly proclaim that we had a hand in this.
Ditch the Shah and replace it with Khomeini.
No wonder they shout death to America.


It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 01:27:10 PM »
No.  The Christian Reformation happened in spite of being impossible though.

Shia and Sunni aren't the same.  But they both have minerals we want (to help China get to).

No bowl of fried rice for you, Pr126.
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Online Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 02:43:52 PM »
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Ditch the Shah and replace it with Khomeini.
No wonder they shout death to America.

Face palm so hard right now. Please look up the secular, democratically elected Mosaddegh, then look who overthrew him. I'll give you a hint... it starts with Brit and ends in -ain.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 02:45:54 PM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 07:16:54 PM »
Face palm so hard right now. Please look up the secular, democratically elected Mosaddegh, then look who overthrew him. I'll give you a hint... it starts with Brit and ends in -ain.

British Petroleum strikes again ... not just in the Gulf blowout.  But as helped by Kermit Roosevelt, the ner-do-well younger son of Teddy Roosevelt.

The US never interferes in the politics of other nations, that is why we should all be mad if another nation does it to us!
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Online Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 07:31:46 PM »
Several issues, now that I am at home and have a keyboard rather than a phone...

1. Islam is reforming, yes... and in different parts of the world, it is reforming in different ways. You have the Wahhabist fundamentalists of Saudi Arabia, but then you travel to Turkey and see people drinking raki and visiting brothels. In Indonesia and Singapore, you can meet devout Muslims who eat pork and have tattoos.

You can claim Islam is capable of reforming, or you can claim it cant. But you cant claim both, and you cant just use negative examples but rather have to look at the big picture which is that Islam in certain regions is becoming more moderate, in some regions is staying the same, and in other's is reverting to a more fundamentalist interpretation (which is unpopular to both the moderate and conservative Muslims around them).

2. "We can proudly proclaim that we had a hand in this." - I mean, yes... yes we really can. We have funded and propped up fundamentalist terrorists and governments in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and the Arab League. We have overthrown democratic, secular leaders in Iran, Iraq, Egypt and left power vacuums for more radical groups to take charge.

The three largest sponsors of state terrorism in the world can directly trace their political rise to Western powers... the Saudi family being backed by Western interests,  in Iran overthrow of the secular Mosaddegh to install the hugely unpopular Shah, and in Pakistan the Western backing of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq to fight the Soviets.

This is simple fact, simple history. This is what happened, so when you talk about Islam as being the root cause of all the violence in the Middle East, what you are essentially saying is that history, actual fact, is irrelevant and it must be because they are "different" that all the problems in the world are there fault.

It's funny, I never thought about how the people who cry loudest about how terrible identity politics are... are the people who most blatantly use such ideas.

3. "Ditch the Shah and replace it with Khomeini.  No wonder they shout death to America." - While I already posted about him before, seriously... look up who Mosaddegh is. If you really did ignore me, than if someone would quote that name for me, I would be grateful. It's also funny you come from an Eastern Bloc country, and yet support the Shah, who was basically a Western Eastern Bloc country leader with his own versions of gulags, secret police and all the stereotypical shitty things about the Soviet Union.

For those of you interested...

This one does a great "crash course" coverage of the history of modern Iran. While it leaves alot out, it still hits all the key bits. If you are more interested, the book, "All The Shah's Men", is absolutely great.



"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Online Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 07:45:58 PM »


Greenwald absolutely demolishes Maher, who basically parrots (or who pr parrots) posts here.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 07:52:51 PM »
Except Khomeni was an agent of French communism, aka an agent of the Soviet Union.  Where were the Vietnamese communists and Cambodian communists when they were in exile?  In the French colonial motherland.  Not so the Iranians, but they also have a love relationship with France.  But a pragmatic choice ... the Soviets had to agree to sacrifice the Iranian communist party members to horrible deaths.

I am not opposed to Iran or Shiism or Ayatollah theocracy.  But I wouldn't want to live there.  Read "Persepolis" by Marjane Satrapi.
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Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 10:02:42 PM »
Any reformation is done to soften the rules of the Islam to make the religion seems like soft to outsiders.

But the rules of any religion is static and stiff and cannot be changed.|
How you can change the sayings of Allah...?
It is like how it is written at its times...

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 10:05:48 PM »
Any reformation is done to soften the rules of the Islam to make the religion seems like soft to outsiders.

But the rules of any religion is static and stiff and cannot be changed.|
How you can change the sayings of Allah...?
It is like how it is written at its times...

Correct.  All of the Quran is the words of G-d ... only some of the words of the Bible are the words of G-d.  Jews and Christians got out competed in theocracy!
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Online Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 11:09:23 PM »
Any reformation is done to soften the rules of the Islam to make the religion seems like soft to outsiders.

But the rules of any religion is static and stiff and cannot be changed.|

I doubt appealing to outsiders was the first thing on their minds when Islam splintered between Shia and Sunni, and the resulting ideological differences (with Shia being a fusion of traditional Islam and elements of Persian culture and theology sprinkled in). Nor do I think Luther's first thought when he nailed the thesis to the wall was, "Man, this should make the Catholic Church look much better!".

Reformers are, generally, super devout men who see their religion as doing something un-their-religion, and want to fix it. That, or they are super non-devout men who want something their religion prohibits and contests it until a sizable group agrees with them. But reformation is very inward aimed rather than outwards.

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How you can change the sayings of Allah...?
It is like how it is written at its times...

Pretty easily; translate it differently (though they were smart and insisted that only Arabic, rather than a dead language, is the "true" interpretation [which is actually accurate if you want to understand him the most clearly]). We do it all the time with Islam; reading it in English loses and gains things in translation that the original message didn't intend to be lost or added.

But reformation is more about interpretation of what was written rather than changing what was written. That is what is important. 100 people can read the Qu'ran and come away with 100 different interpretations. 
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline Baruch

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 11:21:35 PM »
Except that ... Muslim jurists of Sunni or Shia version, will tell you that there are only a few correct interpretations, that don't differ in anything essential ... that happen to be their jurisprudence traditions ;-)
שלום

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 11:29:06 PM »
I doubt appealing to outsiders was the first thing on their minds when Islam splintered between Shia and Sunni, and the resulting ideological differences (with Shia being a fusion of traditional Islam and elements of Persian culture and theology sprinkled in). Nor do I think Luther's first thought when he nailed the thesis to the wall was, "Man, this should make the Catholic Church look much better!".

Reformers are, generally, super devout men who see their religion as doing something un-their-religion, and want to fix it. That, or they are super non-devout men who want something their religion prohibits and contests it until a sizable group agrees with them. But reformation is very inward aimed rather than outwards.

Pretty easily; translate it differently (though they were smart and insisted that only Arabic, rather than a dead language, is the "true" interpretation [which is actually accurate if you want to understand him the most clearly]). We do it all the time with Islam; reading it in English loses and gains things in translation that the original message didn't intend to be lost or added.

But reformation is more about interpretation of what was written rather than changing what was written. That is what is important. 100 people can read the Qu'ran and come away with 100 different interpretations.

There are lots of types of Arabics which are spoken.
The spoken Arabic in Egypy, in Saudi Arabia, or in Algeria, All are different. They cant even understand each other
But the Arabic taught in schools in that countries called Fasih Arabic is the language spoken in Muho s times. about 1400 years ago.


What i mean with reformation is for example not to kill ones who leave the religion etc..
Like they know better than Allah what Allah means in the Quran : )

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 12:17:47 AM »
"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed my favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion." Qur'an, 5:3

How can you change anything in what is perfect? It is blasphemy.

Imam Al Tabari in his commentary states:

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"None can change His words", He is saying that there is no one who could change what He has informed in His books about anything which is bound to happen during it's time or has been postponed. It all happens as Allah says it would. (Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, Jami' al-bayan fi ta'wil al-Qur'an, Commentary on Surah 6:115, Source)

It is hard baked into the Quran that "reformation" is not possible.

Islam did not "reform" in 1400 years. It will not change now when Islam is winning ground all over.

By reformation we mean enlightenment, as it happened in Christianity.

But reformation also means to reform to its original form, i.e. as it was in the times of the prophet.
See Wahhabism.
Or further back in the 11th century with Al Ghazali.
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Al-Ghazali has been referred to by some historians as the single most influential Muslim after the prophet Muhammad.[17] Within Islamic civilization he is considered to be a Mujaddid or renewer of the faith, who, according to tradition, appears once every century to restore the faith of the community.

More:
Why calling for an ‘Islamic Reformation’ is lazy and historically illiterate
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Martin Luther wasn’t trying to create a more liberal political order. It’s time to talk about what really happened

It’s been said for years now: Islam needs its reformation. Some centuries ago, Christianity ditched its theocratic impulse and affirmed modern political values — let Islam do likewise! Let its Luther, who is presumably sulking in the corner of some madrassa, come forward! Islam hath need of him!

This sounds briskly no-nonsense, in its willingness to say that Islam has a problem that needs fixing, and open-minded about religion, in its assumption that religions can change and be compatible with secularism. But it’s actually lazy and historically illiterate. It involves a misreading of how Christianity relates to modernity.

It implies that, once upon a time, Christianity was in conflict with healthy political values, but it learned to change its ways. Maybe it is supposed that Martin Luther was the pioneer of this, that he said something along the lines of: ‘Let’s question what the Pope tells us and adapt our faith so that it accords with humanist morality, equal rights, and the separation of church and state.’

Instead, Luther said something along the lines of: ‘Let’s purify our religion, be more faithful to its essential logic, contained in its founding documents.’ And this reforming movement gradually produced new political realities and ideas. Creating a more liberal political order was not on Luther’s agenda, nor on anyone’s at that time, but it did become a central concern of some Protestants in the next century. The Protestant Reformation was not a matter of Christianity accepting the truth of something else, something beyond itself. And that is what people really want when they say that Islam needs a reformation: they want it to accept the truth of western values, adapt to them.

So the ‘Islam needs its reformation’ line makes this mistake. It supposes that Christianity and Islam are two comparable forms of religion: if Religion A adapted to modernity, Religion B can too. But Religion A didn’t adapt to modernity: it inadvertently made modernity, by trying to be more purely itself.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:33:50 AM by pr126 »
It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

Online Shiranu

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 12:36:00 AM »
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What i mean with reformation is for example not to kill ones who leave the religion etc..
Like they know better than Allah what Allah means in the Quran : )

Except there are plenty of Muslims that believe that, both in the West but also in the Middle East.

For whatever reason, Westerners have engrained in their collective psyche that Islam is a monolithic pillar that cannot be altered, when that is simply inaccurate and contradictory to basically all of human history ever.

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It is hard baked into the Quran that "reformation" is not possible.

So reformation is not possible, but they are having to reform back to a more pure form, which means reformation happened, even though reformation is impossible.

Stop. Take a breath. Think your words through before you type them.


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So the ‘Islam needs its reformation’ line makes this mistake. It supposes that Christianity and Islam are two comparable forms of religion: if Religion A adapted to modernity, Religion B can too. But Religion A didn’t adapt to modernity: it inadvertently made modernity, by trying to be more purely itself.
The simple truth is in a modern world, with modern resources, people will adopt a modern way of life. This is simply the reality of the world. Muslims are not aliens that doesn't apply to.

You look at the Western transition to modernity, and it was a turmoil filled several hundred year process which is still far from perfect; we still have atheists arguing against LGBT+ communities using very archaic interpretations of gender that stem from religious doctrine, so when theological mindsets still dominate the atheist community you have to consider just how theological our general population is.

So when we criticize a region that has developed later, and who has been consistently suppressed by us (and that's not a statement against the west, that is a historical norm... whoever has the biggest, baddest, newest stick or gun exploits those around them), then it's not at all surprising that they are not at our level.

Rather than a reformation of Islam, what we should be pushing for is a reformation away from colonial mindsets and a reformation of the education and standards of living within these countries. But we also have to realise that those changes cannot be forced on anyone, and when they are it almost always has disastrous results.


Long story short; we have to stop acting like it's a black-and-white issue with one problem (ISLAAAAAAAMMMM!!!) and instead realise that theology, politics and sociology in the Middle East, and everywhere else, is an extremely complex system and the problems in it are likewise extremely complex and have no one simple answer. If you were to magically poof Islam out of existence this very moment, the situation in the Middle East would likely, for all intents and purposes, remain almost exactly the same. Islam is an extension of culture, not the source of... no more than the oppressive theocracies of the Dark Ages were an extension of a culture recovering from the fall of the Roman Empire and not a product of Christianity.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:44:54 AM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Islamic reformation possible?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 01:40:32 AM »
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So reformation is not possible, but they are having to reform back to a more pure form, which means reformation happened, even though reformation is impossible.

Stop. Take a breath. Think your words through before you type them.

Wordplay again?

The meaning of reformation: To reform to its original form.

Not the same as we see Reformation == enlightenment.
That is why Christians bothered with the New Testament.
There will be no Quran 2.0 anytime soon.

In this context, we have given the word “reformation” another meaning.
Words and their meaning are changing all the time.

Being an apologist for the worst ideology possible on the planet is not a virtue.
Unless you are doing dawah.



« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 05:00:01 AM by pr126 »
It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell