Author Topic: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty  (Read 212 times)

Offline Deidre32 (OP)

Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« on: July 31, 2017, 10:26:24 PM »
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/10/15/nietzsche-on-difficulty/

I'm often drawn to writings of philosophers who speak to me about my own problems. It shows me that people from distant generations and cultures, all grapple with the same things as me. Nietzsche was an amazingly brilliant man, imo...and he tapped into some very deep thoughts when it came to pleasure and pain. He seemed to think that without pain, there can't be pleasure, or at least...a balance of the two. And that he had little pity for people in painful situations, because eventually, the pain and suffering would bring them the will ''to endure.'' I've often thought of what life might be like to live it without any suffering of any kind. Well, the occasional flu would be acceptable and natural, but the pain of a broken heart, or losing a loved one would be nice to do without. Or would it? Is it essential for us to go through pain, in order to become stronger and ''better for it?''

There's so much insane suffering in the world, though. Wars that make no sense and destroy innocent lives. What grand lesson could those poor people possibly learn from such tragedies? I understand Nietzsche's perceptions, but there are obviously complexities to the whole thing.

What do you think?
The only lasting beauty, is the beauty of the heart. - Rumi

Offline Baruch

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 10:58:20 PM »
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/10/15/nietzsche-on-difficulty/

I'm often drawn to writings of philosophers who speak to me about my own problems. It shows me that people from distant generations and cultures, all grapple with the same things as me. Nietzsche was an amazingly brilliant man, imo...and he tapped into some very deep thoughts when it came to pleasure and pain. He seemed to think that without pain, there can't be pleasure, or at least...a balance of the two. And that he had little pity for people in painful situations, because eventually, the pain and suffering would bring them the will ''to endure.'' I've often thought of what life might be like to live it without any suffering of any kind. Well, the occasional flu would be acceptable and natural, but the pain of a broken heart, or losing a loved one would be nice to do without. Or would it? Is it essential for us to go through pain, in order to become stronger and ''better for it?''

There's so much insane suffering in the world, though. Wars that make no sense and destroy innocent lives. What grand lesson could those poor people possibly learn from such tragedies? I understand Nietzsche's perceptions, but there are obviously complexities to the whole thing.

What do you think?

If you can look into the Abyss, and survive it staring back into you ... then you are his follower.  The odd-balls are the best thinkers, they get out of the box.  Recent video bio of Nietzsche ...



I like this British woman historian ... everything she does is excellent.
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Offline Sal1981

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 11:04:12 PM »
The usual spin is that without dark, there can be no distinguishable light; this same sentiment is used with suffering and strife against happiness and wellbeing.

I'm not so sure, I believe there can be grades of happiness and wellbeing, without having any suffering and strife.

On the other hand, I think that if everything is just handed to you without any effort, you won't appreciate it as much if you had to struggle to get whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Giving this, with struggle comes appreciation for ones happiness and wellbeing: You had to work for it.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Deidre32 (OP)

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 11:19:28 PM »
If you can look into the Abyss, and survive it staring back into you ... then you are his follower.  The odd-balls are the best thinkers, they get out of the box.  Recent video bio of Nietzsche ...



I like this British woman historian ... everything she does is excellent.
Thanks for posting this, I'll watch it tomorrow. I've always been fascinated by Nietzsche.

The usual spin is that without dark, there can be no distinguishable light; this same sentiment is used with suffering and strife against happiness and wellbeing.

I'm not so sure, I believe there can be grades of happiness and wellbeing, without having any suffering and strife.
Agree. There doesn't need to be suffering for every moment of pleasure or happiness that we feel. I'm not sure he's speaking in those types of specifics, but good point.

Quote
On the other hand, I think that if everything is just handed to you without any effort, you won't appreciate it as much if you had to struggle to get whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Giving this, with struggle comes appreciation for ones happiness and wellbeing: You had to work for it.
Yes, without some struggle, there could be no victory. There's a commercial out now showing athletes who ''fail'' and that is the best way to victory, in so many words, is the commercial. But, there's other types of suffering, like deaths of loved ones, or losing a job or a relationship...and I wonder why we must go through such pain ...is there a greater good to be achieved by it all? I guess there is, pain is inevitable, but maybe how long we suffer through it, is up to us?
The only lasting beauty, is the beauty of the heart. - Rumi

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 07:32:49 PM »
I have a very big problem with consuming alcohol.
Actually, although i am 28, i am an alcoholic. I do not exaggarate...
I have been consuming alcohol often and intense since i was 18. Often everyday since today. That is, my alcoholism spreads 10 years.
My longest soberity lasts for one year. I was going to a university and there was an activity that occupy my mind.
However, in recent times, for about more than a year, i am spending my time doing nothing other than surfing on the internet and this situation has began to make me to feel tired and boring.
Also i cannot hope about my future. I have no job and diploma, just because of my alcoholism and by the way, i do not want to work at all.
Baruch once said: First survive, second philosophise but i doubt i have depression and from the point  of view of my philosophy, working for just enough money for doing a living is meaningless. We have one life and so we do better doing the job that we love but this is often not possible... I dont know what to do. I am living in a world that i dream but this does not reflect the reality.

Do not know what to do, i am thinking of beginning to the uni again after 30 and of course without alcohol that has fucked my life...

anyway just i wanted to tell...

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 07:55:53 PM »
I have a very big problem with consuming alcohol.
Actually, although i am 28, i am an alcoholic. I do not exaggarate...
I have been consuming alcohol often and intense since i was 18. Often everyday since today. That is, my alcoholism spreads 10 years.
My longest soberity lasts for one year. I was going to a university and there was an activity that occupy my mind.
However, in recent times, for about more than a year, i am spending my time doing nothing other than surfing on the internet and this situation has began to make me to feel tired and boring.
Also i cannot hope about my future. I have no job and diploma, just because of my alcoholism and by the way, i do not want to work at all.
Baruch once said: First survive, second philosophise but i doubt i have depression and from the point  of view of my philosophy, working for just enough money for doing a living is meaningless. We have one life and so we do better doing the job that we love but this is often not possible... I dont know what to do. I am living in a world that i dream but this does not reflect the reality.

Do not know what to do, i am thinking of beginning to the uni again after 30 and of course without alcohol that has fucked my life...

anyway just i wanted to tell...
Well you seem to have the problem down.  It is you.  And you are now where you have chosen to be.  You made those decisions, not anybody else.  And there is only one way to go in a different direction and that is to chose to do it.  If you are really unhappy about your life, then change it.  If not, quit complaining. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 08:22:31 PM »
Well you seem to have the problem down.  It is you.  And you are now where you have chosen to be.  You made those decisions, not anybody else.  And there is only one way to go in a different direction and that is to chose to do it.  If you are really unhappy about your life, then change it.  If not, quit complaining.

You know alcoholism is a disease. It's not a choice or decision.
At least, mine is so...
It has progressed in the course of time.

I was young and ignorant and i was not aware of my responsibilities...
Actually to be young is a disease : )
I have taken my lessons but now i am wondering whether it is late or not to start university...

I will say hello to life again by refraining from alcohol and i know it is a chronic disease...
i mean, i had been sober for a year and i began and went on to drinking again... it is chronic...

Offline Deidre32 (OP)

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 08:51:52 PM »
I have a very big problem with consuming alcohol.
Actually, although i am 28, i am an alcoholic. I do not exaggarate...
I have been consuming alcohol often and intense since i was 18. Often everyday since today. That is, my alcoholism spreads 10 years.
My longest soberity lasts for one year. I was going to a university and there was an activity that occupy my mind.
However, in recent times, for about more than a year, i am spending my time doing nothing other than surfing on the internet and this situation has began to make me to feel tired and boring.
Also i cannot hope about my future. I have no job and diploma, just because of my alcoholism and by the way, i do not want to work at all.
Baruch once said: First survive, second philosophise but i doubt i have depression and from the point  of view of my philosophy, working for just enough money for doing a living is meaningless. We have one life and so we do better doing the job that we love but this is often not possible... I dont know what to do. I am living in a world that i dream but this does not reflect the reality.

Do not know what to do, i am thinking of beginning to the uni again after 30 and of course without alcohol that has fucked my life...

anyway just i wanted to tell...
((hug)) May I ask, what do you think, if you had to pinpoint it...leads you to escape? Alcohol like anything else is a vice, an escape from reality. Addictions are all escapes from reality. Religion used to be my preferred escape from reality, but religion is ''acceptable'' in our culture, even though it truly causes a person to not deal with reality, to some extent.

What's positive, is that you realize that you have a problem with alcohol, and are looking for answers. I think that's a great start.  (And it's never ever too late to start going to college) But, you still have to figure out why you drink so much, because you'll just carry the problem into the university experience. Your drinking will follow you everywhere you go if you don't figure out WHY you drink. I don't really think that people's addictions are their main problems, it's what causes the addictions that are the problems.. The addictions just compound the main problem, you know?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:56:15 PM by Deidre32 »
The only lasting beauty, is the beauty of the heart. - Rumi

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 08:55:02 PM »
You know alcoholism is a disease. It's not a choice or decision.
At least, mine is so...
It has progressed in the course of time.

I was young and ignorant and i was not aware of my responsibilities...
Actually to be young is a disease : )
I have taken my lessons but now i am wondering whether it is late or not to start university...

I will say hello to life again by refraining from alcohol and i know it is a chronic disease...
i mean, i had been sober for a year and i began and went on to drinking again... it is chronic...
Yes, I know it is a disease.  You are hooked and you will always be an alcoholic.  But you, and only you, can chose to do something about it.  I am a diabetic.  I can treat it--or not.  My choice.  That is your choice--treat it or not.  If you want to treat it, then go to somebody who knows how to treat that disease.  That's up to you.  And it is never too late to do anything you want to do.  My wife got her BA in her 50's.  Never too late.  In any case, I wish you good luck.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 09:30:07 PM »
((hug)) May I ask, what do you think, if you had to pinpoint it...leads you to escape? Alcohol like anything else is a vice, an escape from reality. Addictions are all escapes from reality. Religion used to be my preferred escape from reality, but religion is ''acceptable'' in our culture, even though it truly causes a person to not deal with reality, to some extent.

What's positive, is that you realize that you have a problem with alcohol, and are looking for answers. I think that's a great start.  (And it's never ever too late to start going to college) But, you still have to figure out why you drink so much, because you'll just carry the problem into the university experience. Your drinking will follow you everywhere you go if you don't figure out WHY you drink. I don't really think that people's addictions are their main problems, it's what causes the addictions that are the problems.. The addictions just compound the main problem, you know?
I dont know very well. Maybe i like the feeling alcohol gives.
Maybe i can daydream easier than i am sober : ) Yeap this is the reason and
of course the addiction and physical tolerans has progressed in the course of time.
I have left 3 university department. i couldnt graduate.
The department i have left last was electric-electronics engineering and
education language was in English. But engineering dont feed my intellctual pleasure : )
The conditions in Turkland is very hard.  And as far as i know, so is in America.
The world in general including Europe is the same...

« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 09:33:04 PM by SoldierofFortune »

Offline Deidre32 (OP)

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 12:12:55 AM »
I dont know very well. Maybe i like the feeling alcohol gives.
Maybe i can daydream easier than i am sober : ) Yeap this is the reason and
of course the addiction and physical tolerans has progressed in the course of time.
I have left 3 university department. i couldnt graduate.
The department i have left last was electric-electronics engineering and
education language was in English. But engineering dont feed my intellctual pleasure : )
The conditions in Turkland is very hard.  And as far as i know, so is in America.
The world in general including Europe is the same...



Well, maybe start slowly, like tell yourself you won't drink for a few hours...then an entire day. It's hard to give up a habit that you've been doing for a long time, but the bigger part is to figure out why you need alcohol to get through your day. It might hurt to explore that, but you're not enjoying your life as much as you can if you're addicted like this.
The only lasting beauty, is the beauty of the heart. - Rumi

Offline Baruch

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 12:28:21 AM »
SoldierofFortune ... try out things on Youtube, see what you like.  Every technical and business subject is there.  The quality of instruction varies widely.

Yes, you can try again.  I was failing at learning Theory of Computation (after work class) way back in about 1983.  The text was terrible, I still have it.  I found some nice videos on Youtube, from India, and it is a night vs day difference.

When I was learning Hebrew, only 10 years ago (I was 51) ... I found two different textbooks, which fed two different needs, I wanted both.  Find something you can stick to, and dig in ... one day at a time.
שלום

Online Cavebear

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 06:05:37 AM »
Nietzchie is peachy but Sartre is smarter.  And both are premptious idiots..  I've read them all and I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of them doing any practical thinking. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
Nietzchie is peachy but Sartre is smarter.  And both are premptious idiots..  I've read them all and I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of them doing any practical thinking.
Yeah, but the Sartre character that could have wet dreams on command I found quite interesting.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Nietzsche -- on the value of suffering and difficulty
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 01:08:55 PM »
Nietzchie is peachy but Sartre is smarter.  And both are premptious idiots..  I've read them all and I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of them doing any practical thinking.

You actually got thru Being & Nothingness (by Sartre)?  Incredible!
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