Author Topic: Socialism in Venezuela.  (Read 939 times)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2017, 01:01:34 AM »
I'll give pr this one; from what I know of him, he is an ex-Soviet bloc who moved to England, and hated the world ever since.

Of course, like most ex-Soviet bloc/Cubans, he conflates socialism with communism, without realising the country that was "great" was heavily socialistic.
I don't get how someone who has firsthand experience with communists could ever confuse them with Western socialists (people who support social democracy).

It's like a mistaking a husky with a chihuahua.  You'd think a husky owner of all people would avoid that mistake.

Someone from the boondocks in the South who primarily knows about commies from Cold War era films and Fox News - I could forgive those people for not knowing any better.  But someone who ought to know better?  Dafuq.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 01:18:02 AM by Hydra009 »

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2017, 01:07:09 AM »
I've always found it odd that people are happy to accept a socialised military, yet think it's a bad system for everything else.
A monopoly on the use of force more or less necessitates that it be a part of the government.

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 05:02:48 AM »
Let's examine the socialist welfare economic system.

The population is in a steady state, workers pay taxes, pay for health care (no, it is not free) and the economy is more or less stable.
Most who are able to pay their way, those who cannot are looked after.

Now introduce open borders, accept millions of migrants who are unable to contribute to the system, do not speak the language, no marketable skills, relying on the state (taxpayer) to feed, house and provide education and medical treatment.
In effect they are only consuming, not producing.

How long will the welfare state in the EU last before it is collapsing?

Our NHS (health care system) in the UK was devised back in 1948 with a smaller population after WWII.
I do not think they were designing the system with open borders in mind.

The NHS is groaning under the strain, depleted of funds, it is possible that it will function less efficiently as time goes on.

Same with schools, the classes are filled with migrant children who do not speak the language, disruptive and teachers have a hard time controlling them. Education is the lowest denomination.

Social services, police, are over worked, under funded.

Socialism doesn't always work as intended. Certainly not with open borders.

What happens when the state runs out of your money?

Venezuela.



« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:22:12 AM by pr126 »
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2017, 06:53:54 AM »
"How long will the welfare state in the EU last before it is collapsing?"  What about fabian socialism, fellow travelers of the Warsaw Pact, Red Brigade terror ... without the US carrying the weight of Nato, without the Marshall Plan ... none of that socialism could have happened.  We only put up with it, because we didn't want to draw the line at the English Channel, but did draw the line at Checkpoint Charlie.  Without US trade and military protection, Europe would have never recovered from WW II, let alone experiment with Soft Communism.

"What happens when the state runs out of your money?  Venezuela."  More appropriately, what happens when your state can't print your own money?  Greece.  Killing the Greeks was the opening shot of WW III.

The world pays protection money by using US dollars, giving 4% of the world GDP to the US, which we turn around and dump into the US military, which protects you.  At one time, Nato member Denmark suggested ... drop the Danish military, just set up a tape recorder at the border that can play "We Surrender" to the invading E German T72 tanks.  Yea, socialism and pacifism ... great if the US is paying for it in resources and blood.
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Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2017, 07:07:59 AM »
Look at this:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/775843/eu-army-ministers-approve-brussels-defence-command-centre

I think that the EU army will be used to suppress internal unrest rather than any external threat.

But.

Why is there still NATO?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 07:17:24 AM by pr126 »
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2017, 07:28:30 AM »
No, I have been there at the time.
Yeah, right.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2017, 07:37:26 AM »
I seriously doubt that socialism is the cause of Venezuela or Greece, anymore that capitalism is the cause of the United States.  For those who hate one or the other, the one they don't like is  the version of the 'ism' unrestrained, which is seldom the 'ism' that is actually in place. 

The job of government is to make things work efficiently.  For those who want their capitalism, socialism, libertarianism, or theism unrestrained, we can dispense with the executive and legislative branches of government letting the courts, using respective works of Karl Marx, Adam Smith, John Birch, or Pat Robertson as guides, punish inappropriate behavior.

But somewhere in between opposing extremes there exists a reality where an effective government can work for the preservation of the country and the common good.  Socialism doesn't say all immigrants must be fed, clothed, or housed regardless of their desire to contribute to the country.  Capitalism doesn't say corrupt or incompetent bankers must have their ill gotten wealth protected by tax payers no matter how corrupted they are.  Politicians run the country, not the 'isms.'

I would look to the people who actually manage the affairs of state, rather than ideological 'isms' to determine the causes of failed states.  Don't blame Karl Marx.  He's dead.  We live in the present.  The perfect form of government has not yet been developed, described, or implemented.  And my suspicion, just a hunch, is that the perfect government is not one of the extremes that people hate or endorse as the only pure path to harmony.

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2017, 07:44:36 AM »
Yeah, right.
I was born in Budapest 1944. Left Hungary after the  1956 revolution.

But I don’t have to justify myself for you.
Who the hell are you anyway?


“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2017, 08:16:26 AM »
I was born in Budapest 1944. Left Hungary after the  1956 revolution.

But I don’t have to justify myself for you.
Who the hell are you anyway?



Your anecdotes hardly support your raving.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Atheon

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2017, 08:45:54 AM »
The economic crisis in Venezuela has far more to do with the country putting all its economic eggs in one basket (petroleum) than in socialism.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2017, 08:56:56 AM »
The economic crisis in Venezuela has far more to do with the country putting all its economic eggs in one basket (petroleum) than in socialism.
And how can we squeeze all the kinds of socialism into one cup? Sweeping castigations are lazy.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2017, 09:29:31 AM »
The economic crisis in Venezuela has far more to do with the country putting all its economic eggs in one basket (petroleum) than in socialism.
I don't worry about other countries a lot, but I do worry about them somewhat.  Some of the richest countries in the world are completely petroleum based, and good for them for now, but those economies have a shelf life.  Petroleum reserves are big advantage, but as the stock market gurus keep telling us, diversification is also important.  Strong economies would then require more than one single resource to sustain them.

Venezuela's current problems started way before this new guy took over, and lower oil prices compounded it's problems significantly.  But lower oil prices are good for the rest of us.  Apparently, anticipating continually higher oil prices is about as sound as anticipating continually higher values in Winnebago stock.  Too many eggs in one basket is more than just a clever saying.  It describes the issue of risk quite well, and it points to part of a solution. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 01:50:02 PM by SGOS »

Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2017, 01:33:42 PM »
Your anecdotes hardly support your raving.

As a historian, you should know better ... at least as far as 1945 - 1991 is concerned in E Europe.

As a Brit today, he is UKIP ... they existed before 1945 also, and they weren't with Chamberlain,
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Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2017, 01:34:37 PM »
And how can we squeeze all the kinds of socialism into one cup? Sweeping castigations are lazy.

You know .. complex questions, with simple answers ... that are wrong ;-)
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Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2017, 01:36:37 PM »
I don't worry about other countries a lot, but I do worry about them somewhat.  Some of the richest countries in the world are completely petroleum based, and good for them for now, but those economies have a shelf life.  Petroleum reserves are big advantage, but as the stock market gurus keep telling us, diversification is also important.  Strong economies would then require more than on single resource to sustain them.

Venezuela's current problems started way before this new guy took over, and lower oil prices compounded it's problems significantly.  But lower oil prices are good for the rest of us.  Apparently, anticipating continually higher oil prices is about as sound as anticipating continually higher values in Winnebago stock.  Too many eggs in one basket is more than just a clever saying.  It describes the issue of risk quite well, and it points to part of a solution.

A coworker of mine, way back in 1980 .. he told the Saudis to diversify.  He founded the Chemistry Dept at the University of Jidda (he himself was from Auburn).  They didn't pay attention ... they are all princes whose shit doesn't stink.
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