Author Topic: Socialism in Venezuela.  (Read 462 times)

Offline pr126 (OP)

Socialism in Venezuela.
« on: July 31, 2017, 01:57:31 AM »
It worked out just fine. What's the problem?
Bernie Sanders, watch this.


It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

Offline Atheon

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 04:16:22 AM »
One could also posit Chile under Pinochet as proof capitalism doesn't work, or Somalia as proof libertarianism doesn't work.

Picking out an example of grossly mismanaged socialism does not mean socialism per se is doomed to failure.

That's as intellectually dishonest and boneheadedly ignorant as pointing out a Muslim killing innocent people and saying "See? All Muslims are terrorists." Only idiots do that, wouldn't you agree?

By the way, there is an opposition party in Venezuela. Read all about them:

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/13270
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:03:05 AM by Atheon »
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 06:33:40 AM »
Unfortunately the CIA is all powerful.  Socialism would have worked everywhere, even the Soviet Union and Mao's China .. except for the damn Capitalists, those kids in their van with the stupid dog ;-)  Maybe being anti-social isn't a long term system of governance ... you have to have a status quo to overthrow.  Might as wish for continuous anarchism aka barbarism.

The Latin American countries went up and down with dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy and democracy ... since the time of the liberation from Spain or Portugal.  This started before the Bolshevik Revolution.  The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects .... including United Fruit.  The US has always been bananas about Latin America and the Caribbean.  And don't forget it is all about the tropical fruits ... including coca ... and pineapple smuggled out of Latin America to Hawaii.  Fortunately coco was transplanted to W Africa where we have a plan B.

Sorry that Venezuela is suffering ... but squirrel, what about the corruption in Brazil?  Ecuador and Bolivia think they are independent.  They should invite in the Chinese Army ... and see how long it takes for them to leave.  I am sure they are keen to join the NORKS with missiles and nukes ... to kill all the White people.  I welcome our Chinese overlords.  The Latin Americans will make a good food supply for a people who will eat anything and everything.

Damn the Yankees, full fried rice ahead!  The Center won't hold ... the current world system is going down in flame, everywhere.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:40:09 AM by Baruch »
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Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 07:04:00 AM »
Unfortunately the CIA is all powerful.  Socialism would have worked everywhere, even the Soviet Union and Mao's China .. except for the damn Capitalists, those kids in their van with the stupid dog ;-)  Maybe being anti-social isn't a long term system of governance ... you have to have a status quo to overthrow.  Might as wish for continuous anarchism aka barbarism.

The Latin American countries went up and down with dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy and democracy ... since the time of the liberation from Spain or Portugal.  This started before the Bolshevik Revolution.  The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects .... including United Fruit.  The US has always been bananas about Latin America and the Caribbean.  And don't forget it is all about the tropical fruits ... including coca ... and pineapple smuggled out of Latin America to Hawaii.  Fortunately coco was transplanted to W Africa where we have a plan B.

Sorry that Venezuela is suffering ... but squirrel, what about the corruption in Brazil?  Ecuador and Bolivia think they are independent.  They should invite in the Chinese Army ... and see how long it takes for them to leave.  I am sure they are keen to join the NORKS with missiles and nukes ... to kill all the White people.  I welcome our Chinese overlords.  The Latin Americans will make a good food supply for a people who will eat anything and everything.

Damn the Yankees, full fried rice ahead!  The Center won't hold ... the current world system is going down in flame, everywhere.
----The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects-----

Actually, There is no importance whether S. America s regimes are communizm or not. Impreial USA s concern is to exploit resources...
The same thing happened in the occupation of the Afghanistan and Iraq. Not that USA s concern was to give them democtacy...But the problem was to exploit petrolium and to realize Greater MIddle East Initiative...
Wasnt 9-11 used for to occupy the Afghanistan. This was just a cover and to spread Islamic terrorism fear to people...


Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 07:10:52 AM »
----The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects-----

Actually, There is no importance whether S. America s regimes are communizm or not. Impreial USA s concern is to exploit resources...
The same thing happened in the occupation of the Afghanistan and Iraq. Not that USA s concern was to give them democtacy...But the problem was to exploit petrolium and to realize Greater MIddle East Initiative...
Wasnt 9-11 used for to occupy the Afghanistan. This was just a cover and to spread Islamic terrorism fear to people...

More recently yes.  Resource exploitation is what ape men do.  Either we get to exploit you and your resources, or someone else will.  Nothing changed with the UN charter, just that Anglophones were on top.  And you are correct about Afghanistan etc.  Part of the Great Game going on between Anglophones and Russiaphones since the mid-19th century.  Ever read the book or see the movie ... Kim, by Rudyard Kipling?  One of my all time favorites.

Anything a government tells you the opposite is probably the truth.  It is part of governance of the sheeple.  Bleet, bleet.
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Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 07:16:49 AM »
So socialism if done correctly is just fine.

But so far nobody worked it out how to do it “correctly”.

Socialism is communism lite. That didn’t work either. The USSR proved that.
It seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.

Communism doesn’t work.
Imagine that a surgeon earns the same as the janitor.
Where is the incentive to become a surgeon?




It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 07:19:37 AM »
So socialism if done correctly is just fine.

But so far nobody worked it out how to do it “correctly”.

Socialism is communism lite. That didn’t work either. The USSR proved that.
It seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.

Communism doesn’t work.
Imagine that a surgeon earns the same as the janitor.
Where is the incentive to become a surgeon?

There is something like ''Universal Basic Income''
It is being applied in Finlandia if i didnt hear wrong.
But this is not socialism of course.

Online Shiranu

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 07:25:39 AM »
Quote
It seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.

Hahah. Hahahahaha. Hahahahahahahahaahahahahaaa....

No.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 07:56:01 AM »
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 08:09:40 AM by pr126 »
It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 09:09:23 AM »
Socialism, communism, democracy, republic, and so on..................none of these terms mean much.  What I mean by that is it is only fully understood what each term means only by the person using them.  The USA has been labeled a democracy, but has never been one.  It is more of a representative republic.  The Soviet Union was labeled as a communist country while it was really a totalitarian dictatorship.  I would say there has not been a 'true' government of any of those labels.  They are all blends and are all unique to that country.  So, socialism in one country is different than socialism in another country, which is different than socialism in the next country, and so on.  One has to define what one means by each of those labels to have a meaningful discussion about them.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 10:28:52 AM »
Socialism, communism, democracy, republic, and so on..................none of these terms mean much.  What I mean by that is it is only fully understood what each term means only by the person using them.  The USA has been labeled a democracy, but has never been one.  It is more of a representative republic.  The Soviet Union was labeled as a communist country while it was really a totalitarian dictatorship.  I would say there has not been a 'true' government of any of those labels.  They are all blends and are all unique to that country.  So, socialism in one country is different than socialism in another country, which is different than socialism in the next country, and so on.  One has to define what one means by each of those labels to have a meaningful discussion about them.
Those terms do tend to get confused. In the worst case, I've seen capitalism referred to as democracy.

People tend to get caught up in ideologies and tend to see their own ideology as a form of perfection and don't look at the actual advantages and shortcomings in the real world.  Ideological descriptions in and of themselves tend to be descriptions in the context of a perfect world. 

Capitalism or socialism can be perfect, I suppose.  But only when excluding the reality of human nature.  Capitalism can work perfectly without the reality of greed and corruption.  But greed and corruption do exist under any form of government, capitalism or socialism.  A few years ago there was a meme going around, "Greed is good," and in terms of only the accumulation of personal wealth to the exclusion of all other social needs, it would be.  In fact, that's the definition of "greed."  But who wants to live in a society that ignores the well being of society?  Well, the greedy do, at least the advantaged greedy, I suppose, but lets not make greed into a virtue when it clearly is not.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with the ideology of socialism.  It pretty much reflects one of mankind's genetic advantages, working together as a group to protect all the individuals in the group.  But in the context of the reality of greed and corruption, it can fall apart, just as does capitalism.  Each ideology works, but only without the corrupting influences.  These influences tend to be ignored by ideologists, or in the worst cases, whitewashed as virtues as in "greed is good" or "to each according to his need."

Criticisms of government tend to be seen as attacks on a cherished ideology, when in fact most criticisms of government are for its failure to control corruption or  failure to mitigate or even worse, create adverse behaviors that weaken society.  Adverse behaviors bred by overzealous ideologists are ignored.  A few years back, when American society started to become more aware of corporate buying of political influence, the term "crony capitalism" became briefly popular.  Ideological capitalists used the term to defend capitalism by saying crony capitalism wasn't capitalism.  But capitalism describes the accumulation of wealth.  It makes no provision of how the wealth is accumulated, be it by honest labor, or tax payers bailing out corrupt bankers.  Wealth is wealth.  It makes no difference to account ledgers how the wealth is achieved.

Any ideology can become too much of a good thing with enormously bad consequences to any society.  Ideologies can sound good in philosophical discussion, but in a real world, they never seem to work as perfectly as they are described.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 10:32:17 AM by SGOS »

Online Shiranu

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 11:43:22 AM »
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.


So has capitalism. Should we abandon it as well?
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline Atheon

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2017, 11:47:26 AM »
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.

I would agree that communism, like fascism, has produced nothing but death, suffering, poverty, hardship and misery.

But communism is not socialism, and socialism is not communism. Just like fascism is not capitalism, and capitalism is not fascism.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 01:18:05 PM »
It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. - Mark Twain

In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

Offline Baruch

Re: Socialism in Venezuela.
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 01:20:52 PM »
...

They need to eat their politicians.
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