Author Topic: Now, if you are read....  (Read 1309 times)

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2017, 07:47:34 AM »
Do you speak for god?
All Christ centered Christians do. in everything we think say and Do.

This pretty much sums up my problem with religious types.   They truly believe this.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2017, 09:39:05 AM »
This pretty much sums up my problem with religious types.   They truly believe this.

And who gets to decide who is "Christ centered" and who is not? Pretty convenient that every Christian is an expert on what "real Christians" are supposed to think and do.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 07:18:40 PM »
histogram chart - put the beliefs of all the brands of Christianity on a histogram and find out where the center is.... can't be any more scientific than that ;-)
another quote from an antagonist agnostic: not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Offline Baruch

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2017, 07:23:25 PM »
histogram chart - put the beliefs of all the brands of Christianity on a histogram and find out where the center is.... can't be any more scientific than that ;-)

Another poll ...

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/04/12/religion-in-everyday-life/
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Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2017, 07:43:39 PM »
And who gets to decide who is "Christ centered" and who is not? Pretty convenient that every Christian is an expert on what "real Christians" are supposed to think and do.

Maybe we should create a logical fallacy based on this flawed thinking of Christians?

We could call it, "the no true Christian" fallacy.

Think we could get some traction on this?
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Offline Baruch

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2017, 07:48:39 PM »
Maybe we should create a logical fallacy based on this flawed thinking of Christians?

We could call it, "the no true Christian" fallacy.

Think we could get some traction on this?

Traction?  Like super-glued to the pavement ;-)  All Christians have the "no true Christian fallacy" hence all the multiple sects, and concern about heretics in the ranks.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2017, 10:13:37 AM »
One of the problems with religions, is that when you really get down to it, none of what the adherents believe is exactly the same theisms.  Put any 2 theists who are actually capable arguing (I know, an almost null proposition), but in discussing details, they would disagree on SOMETHING.

So would almost any 2 scientists.  But there is a difference.  Religion is The True Word and revelatory of Truth; science is always provisional.

Religion, logically, cannot ever be wrong (knock yourself out on that one Baruch) as it comes from a deity.  Science can change with every new fact.  And I love that.  No progress can be made without change.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2017, 12:49:22 PM »
"No progress can be made without change." ... True, but not all change is progress.

The Jewish version of your point ... two Jews, three opinions ;-)
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Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2017, 03:40:49 PM »
Righteousness says: it is always a sin to lie no matter what the reason.

God's righteousness is absolute, and never changes.

Maybe these religious folks should've been told that:


Quote from: Eusebius of Nicomedia
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
Quote from: Catholic Encyclical X, 195
We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.
Quote from: Edwin F. Healy, S. J., "Moral Guidance", 1960
At times one is obliged in concience to veil the truth, for there are secrets to be guarded and detractions to be avoided. Sometimes silence will not suffice to maintain the secret which one is trying to guard. In fact, it may happen that silence would betray the secret. Hence there must be some licit means of concealing the truth when necessary. This licit means is the broad mental reservation....One way of putting the question is to ask if a false statement is always a lie. Some theologians answer in the negative....Sometimes it is necessary to make a false statement in order to protect secret knowledge. Silence or the use of mental reservation is not sufficient; the only way to protect the secret is to make a statement contrary to what....you know to be true.
Quote from: Beausobre (theologian)
Christians not only do not say what they think, but they do say the direct contrary of what they think. Philosophers in their cabinets; out of them they are content with fables, though they well know they are fables. Nay, more: they deliver honest men to the executioner, for having uttered what they themselves know to be true. How many atheists and pagans have burned holy men under the pretext of heresy? Every day do hypocrites consecrate, and make people adore the host, though as well convinced as I am, that it is nothing but a bit of bread.
Quote from: Augustine, "On Lying", c. 19
It is lawful then, to him that discusses, disputes and preaches of things eternal, or to him that narrates of things temporal pertaining to religion or piety, to conceal at fitting times whatever seems fit to be concealed.
Quote from: Gregory of Nanzianus (in a letter to St. Jerome)
A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose upon the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said, not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.
Quote from: Hermas, Visions of Hermas, vol. 2, ch. 3
Oh Lord, I never spoke a true word in my life, I have always affirmed a lie as truth to all men, and no man contradicted me; instead, they all gave credit to my works.
Quote from: Martin Luther
What would it matter if, for the sake of the Christian Church, one were to tell a big lie?
Quote from:  Martin Luther
What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.


Apparently the religious have no problem at all with a bit of situational ethics.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2017, 03:44:39 PM »
I speak for myself, because I am a demigod ... and so can you, because so are you.  Drich is mistaken, because he thinks he speaks for more than himself.  All gods are projections of our inner selves.  Fictional yes, but powerful as any other ideal can be.  Of course the inner selves of monkey men, can be ... problematic.  One gnostic I know, simply insists that if you are going to be theistic, you should always choose the best possible god, even if it is only in your head.  The god in your head, effects what you think, say or do.
If everyone is a god, then no one is a god.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2017, 03:46:38 PM »
honestly Baruch, this is why I like you so much, you think well outside the box.
That's because he knows well what's inside the box.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2017, 03:54:26 PM »
Drichbitch's god created shit, literally, if his babble is to be believed.
Yeah, God created shit, but he doesn't like stepping in it any more than we do:

Quote from: Deuteronomy 23:12-14
Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2017, 03:59:58 PM »
So would almost any 2 scientists.
At least the scientists could, in theory, perform an experiment to see which is right - the god-heads never could.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2017, 04:17:20 PM »
But it isn't just religious people who lie, so does God - a lot!




Quote from: Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Quote from: Genesis 3:3-4
But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Quote from: Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Apparently, Adam did not die in the day he ate the forbidden fruit, so God just plain lied.







Quote from: Jeremiah 4:10
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

Quote from: Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
Quote from: Ezekiel 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.






Quote from: Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

with 2Kings 23:3,5,8-15,21-22,25-26
Quote from: 2Kings 23:3
And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all [their] heart and all [their] soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.


Quote from: 2Kings 23:5
And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.



Quote from: 2Kings 23:8-15
And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that [were] in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which [were] on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
 Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
And he defiled Topheth, which [is] in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which [was] in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.
And the altars that [were] on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and the altars which Manasseh had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat down, and brake [them] down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron.
And the high places that [were] before Jerusalem, which [were] on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.
And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men.
Moreover the altar that [was] at Bethel, [and] the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, [and] stamped [it] small to powder, and burned the grove.


Quote from: 2Kings 23:21-22
And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as [it is] written in the book of this covenant.
Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah;




Quote from: 2Kings 23:25
And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there [any] like him.


and

Quote from: 2Chronicles 34:33
And Josiah took away all the abominations out of all the countries that [pertained] to the children of Israel, and made all that were present in Israel to serve, [even] to serve the LORD their God. [And] all his days they departed not from following the LORD, the God of their fathers.


then see

Quote from: 2Kings 23:26-27
Notwithstanding the LORD turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal.
And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.

So The king of Judah, Josiah, did exactly what God wanted, but God fucked Judah up anyway!

What a liar this God of the Bible is!
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline Baruch

Re: Now, if you are read....
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2017, 06:10:35 PM »
If everyone is a god, then no one is a god.

I am not Orthodox, but un-Orthodox.  Using orthodoxy as a standard, when you aren't religious, is a straw man.  There is the macrocosm and the many microcosms.  The existence of the microcosms, doesn't rule out a macrocosm.  As a Panentheist, I have no problem with a deeply humanistic macrocosm (at least for people as a particular species).  There could be different macrocosms for different species.  In linear thinking, we could produce our own transcendent existence.

"What a liar this God of the Bible is!" ... this is a realistic god, not an ideal god.  Making out any god to be an ideal, even a demigod like myself, is your problem, not mine, not G-d's.  And how typical ... a parent expressing "do what I say, not what I do" ;-))
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:13:53 PM by Baruch »
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