Author Topic: Transgender and the Military  (Read 639 times)

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 05:42:12 PM »
I spent 20 years in the USN and never had an official reason for inquiring as to a person's current genitalia circumstances.

Off duty was another matter. ;-)
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 06:36:50 PM »
It's really not a complex concept.

Sex - Do you have a penis or a vagina (or something else).

Gender - A mixture of one's role in society, expected way to carry and present oneself, how one perceives themselves and where they feel they belong in society as well as what they enjoy, and other non-physical related things that we force on a person for physical reasons without requiring any actual physical criteria. For example, butch and dyke lesbians vs just... girls who are lesbians... are almost like two completely different genders even though both are just lesbians and both are just women. Or flamboyant gays with all the stereotypical signs who are...different... from just regular gay guys who, if you met on the street, you wouldn't necessarily know they were gay.

Shorter, gender is how we with more detail examine someone and what there expected place in society is.

(I don't believe the different types of lesbians or gays are actually different genders, but they make the easiest example of how someone can be a male or female and yet be drastically different in how we perceive them and how they perceive themselves, and that this shows that it's not just gender that has alot of ambiguity and fluidity.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 06:39:04 PM by Shiranu »
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Cavebear

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2017, 06:40:19 PM »
I spent 20 years in the USN and never had an official reason for inquiring as to a person's current genitalia circumstances.

Off duty was another matter. ;-)

Yeah, the surprise date...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2017, 07:56:25 PM »
I know...The shit-storm approacheth...

Just for agreeing with me alone you should be drawn and quartered...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2017, 08:28:32 PM »
Just for agreeing with me alone you should be drawn and quartered...
Violating my, "Oath-of no-interaction-with-Drew-anymore," once again...but, I am a little surprised, by the fact that hasn't actually been the case. Of course our own trans-gendered members have yet to contribute, so...I'm not sure I should feel safe, just yet...
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2017, 08:30:15 PM »
It's really not a complex concept.

Sex - Do you have a penis or a vagina (or something else).

Gender - A mixture of one's role in society, expected way to carry and present oneself, how one perceives themselves and where they feel they belong in society as well as what they enjoy, and other non-physical related things that we force on a person for physical reasons without requiring any actual physical criteria. For example, butch and dyke lesbians vs just... girls who are lesbians... are almost like two completely different genders even though both are just lesbians and both are just women. Or flamboyant gays with all the stereotypical signs who are...different... from just regular gay guys who, if you met on the street, you wouldn't necessarily know they were gay.

I don't doubt in the majority of cases they truly feel and act like the gender they believe they are rather than the one assigned via genitalia. Bathrooms, locker rooms and other places have been designated by the genitalia regardless how the person felt about it. I resent the rest of society (particularly the military) being forced to facilitate what amounts to an arbitrary designation. Its also enforcing a social policy on the military because they can. Its not the place for social experimentation. I'm a veteran also. It was difficult but necessary for the service to accommodate woman in combat, it was difficult for the military to accept gays for a host of reasons. This is about as over the top as it gets. I can't imagine this can possibly have a positive effect.

One other comment, I've never watched it but there is a reality show called Jazz that documents the troubles and woes a trans-gendered girl faces.  First off the parents should be arrested for either child abuse or child endangerment for allowing this troubled teen to be on nationwide TV and share her sexuality with the world. I'm sure its me, after all I'm a theist God only knows what I believe, I can't believe any loving parent would do this to a child. I'm sure I'm wrong and this is just the new brave world we live in and I'm a dinosaur.

They are now taping the result when Jazz goes dancing and informs boys she's trans-gendered. They appear to be shocked that some boys don't like it. That's how it goes tolerance isn't enough there must be full acceptance.


Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline Cavebear

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 08:36:17 PM »
I don't doubt in the majority of cases they truly feel and act like the gender they believe they are rather than the one assigned via genitalia. Bathrooms, locker rooms and other places have been designated by the genitalia regardless how the person felt about it. I resent the rest of society (particularly the military) being forced to facilitate what amounts to an arbitrary designation. Its also enforcing a social policy on the military because they can. Its not the place for social experimentation. I'm a veteran also. It was difficult but necessary for the service to accommodate woman in combat, it was difficult for the military to accept gays for a host of reasons. This is about as over the top as it gets. I can't imagine this can possibly have a positive effect.

One other comment, I've never watched it but there is a reality show called Jazz that documents the troubles and woes a trans-gendered girl faces.  First off the parents should be arrested for either child abuse or child endangerment for allowing this troubled teen to be on nationwide TV and share her sexuality with the world. I'm sure its me, after all I'm a theist God only knows what I believe, I can't believe any loving parent would do this to a child. I'm sure I'm wrong and this is just the new brave world we live in and I'm a dinosaur.

They are now taping the result when Jazz goes dancing and informs boys she's trans-gendered. They appear to be shocked that some boys don't like it. That's how it goes tolerance isn't enough there must be full acceptance.

I also think they they are what they want to be,  The brain is not the body.  But it IS very difficult for the rest of the work to adapt to...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 08:57:47 PM »
I think this story, is about the child that I referred to in my earlier post, which first made me realize, that there is much more to this subject, than I had ever been aware. Only, where I thought that I remembered nail-clippers, it was actually craft scissors...

WARNING TO DREW: IF YOU READ THIS STORY, YOU WILL CRY:



Quote
Originally published 2 Oct 2012;

Aged six, doctors diagnosed Danann with gender identity disorder

But, while his parents put it down to a phase, when they caught him trying to cut off his penis with scissors aged four, they sought professional help.

Terrified and confused, mum Sarah and dad Bill didn’t know what to think, and experts struggled to explain his behaviour – then, aged six, doctors diagnosed Danann with gender identity disorder, a condition where sufferers are unhappy with their sex.

Controversially, the couple made the decision to bring him up as their daughter, despite his young age, allowing him to grow his hair and wear girls’ clothes full time, even to school.

Now, Sarah, 39, says Danann – who hasn’t changed her name as it’s unisex – is happy for the first time – and Sarah says she’ll even support Danann if she wants a full sex-change op at 15.

Sarah says: “People might think she’s too young, but it’s best for Danann we make the transformation now so she won’t struggle through puberty. She’s a different child now she’s living as a girl – I know we made the right decision. She’s happy, outgoing and doing well at school. This is who she wants to be.”

Yoga instructor Sarah, who lives in California with her older son James, 11, and her police officer husband, Bill, 45, first noticed Danann was unhappy aged two.

She recalls: “I picked him up from a friend’s who has a little girl and found him wearing a Cinderella dress, mini high heels and with pink painted nails. When I made him take the clothes off, he started crying.”

Over the next few months, Danann repeatedly demanded to wear girls’ clothes. Sarah says: “He’d scream when I tried to put him in boys’ clothes and, when I picked him up from nursery, I noticed he’d be playing in the miniature kitchen with the girls and didn’t like trucks or action figures. I assumed it was a phase.”

But, astonishingly, Danann also began drawing pictures of himself as a girl – worryingly, with an unhappy face.

Sarah says: “It really disturbed me seeing him so down. Bill was really freaked out.”

Sarah took Danann to see a paediatrician, who agreed his behaviour was a phase. But, by the time he turned three, Danann’s tantrums worsened.

Sarah explains: “He got really upset when I referred to him as a boy and kept asking me why he had a penis. He’d scream if I wanted to cut his hair. I occasionally let him wear pink T-shirts and necklaces under his clothes, but Bill wasn’t happy. He’s a man’s man – he didn’t like his son looking girlie.”

 “I found him in the playroom trying to cut off his penis with a pair of craft scissors."
And when Danann turned four, Sarah made a shocking discovery. She recalls: “I found him in the playroom trying to cut off his penis with a pair of craft scissors. He was weirdly calm, saying: ‘I’m getting rid of this.’ I felt sick – but luckily he just had a few minor cuts.”

A week later, Danann’s GP referred him to a psychologist who told Sarah he was attention- seeking. But she wasn’t convinced it was that simple.

Sarah explains: “I wondered whether Danann was gay – at school, he started trying to use the girls’ toilets and queuing with the girls when they were divided into groups. Luckily, most children at his primary school were accepting.”

Meanwhile, as Sarah worried, Bill became increasingly angry about Danann’s behaviour. Sarah reveals: “We’d row. He wanted Danann to behave like a boy – but I just wanted him to be happy. I found myself secretly letting Danann wear a Cinderella T-shirt.

“I confided in pals about it and two gay friends agreed they thought he could be gay, but that his behaviour was very extreme. I was still left puzzled.”

Over the next two years, Danann was misdiagnosed with ADHD and bipolar disorder as Sarah sought answers. She says: “His schoolwork suffered and he started lashing out when I dressed him. I’d have bite marks and bruises. I was devastated.”

The situation came to a head when, aged six, Danann flew into a rage after Sarah refused to let him wear a dress to a party. She says: “He jumped out of the car and ran into traffic saying ‘I want to die.’”

 'I told him he’d been born with a girl brain and a boy body. He just said calmly: ‘I’m a girl, I know.’
Sarah contacted her local hospital and Danann was seen by a psychiatrist. After a month of genetic tests and therapy, he diagnosed Danann with gender identity disorder – and, despite his young age, said he needed to start living as a girl.

Sarah explains: “He assured us there was nothing psychologically wrong with Danann – but we were shocked. Bill said he didn’t want any part of it. But for me, everything seemed to fall into place.”

The pair were stunned into disbelief for a week, but say watching a DVD about transgender children helped them come to terms with the diagnosis.

Sarah recalls: “We realised we weren’t alone and other families were experiencing this. I was so sad to let go of my little boy – but I knew Danann would be happy as a girl. It seemed so surreal to be making that decision, but I felt there was no alternative.”

The next day, Sarah explained what was going on to Danann. She says: “I told him he’d been born with a girl brain and a boy body. He just said calmly: ‘I’m a girl, I know.’ I explained we’d treat him as a girl, let him wear girls’ clothes at home and call him ‘she’ from now on.

“And when I said we could go shopping for clothes, Danann couldn’t stop smiling. She chose frilly pink dresses and sparkly shoes. We also bought some dolls. She was immediately less withdrawn. It was still strange – I’d never had a daughter – but I knew I had to do it for her.”

Two months later, aged seven, Danann started a new school and began dressing as a girl there too. Sarah says:

“We met with the headmaster and they were happy – but we decided not to tell the other children. We cut Danann’s hair into a bob, so they didn’t guess. Danann didn’t seem to struggle, she referred to herself as a girl and hung out with the other girls – like she always had.”

Sarah also confided in her friends and family, who were mainly supportive, although Bill’s family struggled to accept the decision.

Sarah adds: “I’d often get my ‘he’s and ‘she’s muddled up, but I got used to it quickly as Danann was so girlie.”

Now, two years on, nine-year-old Danann is doing well at school and is even a member of the Girl Scouts.

Sarah says: “Bill and I are getting on so much better, although it took time for him to accept things. Now Danann’s a real daddy’s girl. He takes her shopping and they’re closer than ever. James is also coping well – he’s very protective of his sister.”

 Sarah says she’ll wait until Danann hits puberty before taking the transformation further
She adds: “Danann wanted to throw out all her boys’ clothes, but I’ve kept the pictures. I look at them and sometimes miss my little boy. But I know Danann is much happier as a girl.”

Now Sarah says she’ll wait until Danann hits puberty before taking the transformation further. She says: “The next step would be hormone treatment, but that’s her decision.

“If she wants to, she’ll take hormone blockers around 10, then start female hormone treatment at 15, which will make her skin softer, reduce body hair growth and encourage breasts to grow. I’d let her have sex-change surgery at that age – I know it’s been done before and I think at that age she’ll know for sure what she wants.”

She adds: “People may criticize, but I couldn’t have forced Danann to live as a boy. I’m glad she’s finally happy in her own skin.”

The only thing that really worries me for this child, is that I have some serious doubts, as to the level of pleasure that can be experienced, from surgically altered genitals, if(YEAH...I'LL SAY IT...) SHE decides on that option.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 09:06:12 PM by Solomon Zorn »
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Cavebear

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2017, 09:05:21 PM »
I think this story, is about the child that I referred to in my earlier post, which first made me realize, that there is much more to this subject, than I had ever been aware. Only, where I thought that I remembered nail-clippers, it was actually craft scissors...

WARNING TO DREW: IF YOU READ THIS STORY, YOU WILL CRY:

Is Dannan psychologically justified in bein being "what she should be"?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2017, 09:10:48 PM »
Is Dannan psychologically justified in bein being "what she should be"?
? I'm not sure I understand, exactly what you mean, by the question...but maybe it would help, if you read the short edit that I made to the post, right at the end, which you may have missed...
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2017, 10:49:31 PM »
Solomon,

Quote
I think this story, is about the child that I referred to in my earlier post, which first made me realize, that there is much more to this subject, than I had ever been aware. Only, where I thought that I remembered nail-clippers, it was actually craft scissors...

WARNING TO DREW: IF YOU READ THIS STORY, YOU WILL CRY:

I read it, its a tragic story and I'm a sentimental guy but I didn't cry. I don't have a beef with people like Bruce Jenner, he's an adult, he paid for it (hope she got a refund). I don't have qualms with people (even children under proven circumstances) change their gender. What I disagree with is the idea that .06% of the population can force the 99.4% to accommodate their situation particularly when nothing more than say so is required. We can go to the theater of the absurd suppose I say I identify as being blind and request assistance. They're are grants given to woman based on being woman but if we accept this new standard, anyone can get the grants by claiming to be a woman 'inside'. I'm not interested in genitalia check if someone looks like a man use the men's room. I don't care and don't want to know. I don't like public bathrooms to begin with. My daughter is grown now but she would be absolutely mortified if she saw someone who has a penis in the girls locker room. There were boys in a school who were upset that a person with a bra and panties was in the boys locker room. They were told sorry if they felt uncomfortable they just need to accept it.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:51:29 PM by Drew_2017 »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2017, 11:54:33 PM »
This will probably be a series of rather short replies...because I haven't slept in so long that is excruciating to lean forward and type for very long...

Quote from: Drew
I read it, its a tragic story and I'm a sentimental guy but I didn't cry.
I mourn for the apparent death of your soul...

Quote from: Drew
What I disagree with is the idea that .06% of the population can force the 99.4% to accommodate their situation particularly when nothing more than say so is required.
Well...it depends on what, "accommodate" entails...

Quote from: Drew
They're are grants given to woman based on being woman but if we accept this new standard, anyone can get the grants by claiming to be a woman 'inside'.
Really...I don't have a clue what you are talking about, here...

Quote from: Drew
I'm not interested in genitalia check if someone looks like a man use the men's room. I don't care and don't want to know.
AGREE ON BOTH POINTS...WOO HOO!

Quote from: Drew
I don't like public bathrooms to begin with.
Oddly enough...AGREE AGAIN...WOO HOO!

Quote from: Drew
My daughter is grown now but she would be absolutely mortified if she saw someone who has a penis in the girls locker room.
I doubt that, very much...more likely titillated. (This one will be a little longer, because I have a personal anecdote to share on the subject.)

When I was a teen, a girl I knew, told me about a boy, with a particularly large dick, whom she had seen, one day, running naked through the girl's locker room...the only other fact that I remember, word for word, from her story, was that her friend exclaimed, "Let me suck your cock! I want your sperm in my mouth!"

So.."mortified?" I doubt it.

Quote from: Drew
There were boys in a school who were upset that a person with a bra and panties was in the boys locker room. They were told sorry if they felt uncomfortable they just need to accept it.
Link?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 11:59:27 PM by Solomon Zorn »
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Baruch

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2017, 12:15:32 AM »
I don't doubt in the majority of cases they truly feel and act like the gender they believe they are rather than the one assigned via genitalia. Bathrooms, locker rooms and other places have been designated by the genitalia regardless how the person felt about it. I resent the rest of society (particularly the military) being forced to facilitate what amounts to an arbitrary designation. Its also enforcing a social policy on the military because they can. Its not the place for social experimentation. I'm a veteran also. It was difficult but necessary for the service to accommodate woman in combat, it was difficult for the military to accept gays for a host of reasons. This is about as over the top as it gets. I can't imagine this can possibly have a positive effect.

One other comment, I've never watched it but there is a reality show called Jazz that documents the troubles and woes a trans-gendered girl faces.  First off the parents should be arrested for either child abuse or child endangerment for allowing this troubled teen to be on nationwide TV and share her sexuality with the world. I'm sure its me, after all I'm a theist God only knows what I believe, I can't believe any loving parent would do this to a child. I'm sure I'm wrong and this is just the new brave world we live in and I'm a dinosaur.

They are now taping the result when Jazz goes dancing and informs boys she's trans-gendered. They appear to be shocked that some boys don't like it. That's how it goes tolerance isn't enough there must be full acceptance.

The military has a practical solution to the bathroom situation, that would work for civilians too ... but the drama queens can't see it.  No group lavatories ... just individual ones, wheelchair accessible.  One person at a time goes in, complete privacy, nobody cares what your gender is.  You don't have to see Tampax dispenser on the wall, nor a condom dispenser (or we could put in both!).  We all get to put up with nasty graffiti however.  The problem is group lavatories have to be single sex.  So get rid of them.  There is no problem with individual ones.  This works everywhere.

And why do you resent what the military has to put up with?  I have worked with the military for half my life, and we (uniformed, GS and contractor) cope just fine thanks.  It was the military that first integrated Blacks ... many times now!  American Revolution, Civil War, Wild West, WW I, WW II (a step back thanks to the KKK), Korea (reintegration under Truman), Vietnam (a step back thanks to college draft deferment ... I am looking at you, Cheney!)  and today, where a volunteer military serves all too well.  We also continue to gradually incorporate women at all levels.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2017, 12:18:04 AM »
Solomon,

I read it, its a tragic story and I'm a sentimental guy but I didn't cry. I don't have a beef with people like Bruce Jenner, he's an adult, he paid for it (hope she got a refund). I don't have qualms with people (even children under proven circumstances) change their gender. What I disagree with is the idea that .06% of the population can force the 99.4% to accommodate their situation particularly when nothing more than say so is required. We can go to the theater of the absurd suppose I say I identify as being blind and request assistance. They're are grants given to woman based on being woman but if we accept this new standard, anyone can get the grants by claiming to be a woman 'inside'. I'm not interested in genitalia check if someone looks like a man use the men's room. I don't care and don't want to know. I don't like public bathrooms to begin with. My daughter is grown now but she would be absolutely mortified if she saw someone who has a penis in the girls locker room. There were boys in a school who were upset that a person with a bra and panties was in the boys locker room. They were told sorry if they felt uncomfortable they just need to accept it.
You have to accommodate left handed people .. the horror!  And like I said before, individual lavatories and ... the problem goes away.  If people are meeting in an individual lavatory ... then there is a different discipline problem.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 12:24:12 AM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Transgender and the Military
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2017, 12:19:12 AM »
I spent 20 years in the USN and never had an official reason for inquiring as to a person's current genitalia circumstances.

Off duty was another matter. ;-)

The Navy was severe on gay sailors back in the day ... but that had a really long history.
שלום