Author Topic: A question for the ex-Christian atheists  (Read 1132 times)

Offline fencerider (OP)

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2017, 11:04:25 PM »
I doubt you did the fasting or hunger strike ... unless you were an anorexic girl at the time ;-)  Sorry if you actually did.  Don't do that again.
Also most people clearly misunderstand the purpose of prayer ... understandably so ... because their only version of G-d is Santa Claus.  Read the Book of Job ... people!
20 days of fasting is not a big deal. When I was younger I would go with out eating for 3 or 4 days just because I wasn't hungry.
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2017, 11:11:27 PM »
I doubt you did the fasting or hunger strike ... unless you were an anorexic girl at the time ;-)  Sorry if you actually did.  Don't do that again.

Also most people clearly misunderstand the purpose of prayer ... understandably so ... because their only version of G-d is Santa Claus.  Read the Book of Job ... people!

Even Biblical authors couldn't decide what prayer was for, and it really makes no sense from a Christian context. They pray to ask for favors from an omniscient god who already knew what they needed, praying to God for certain outcomes, in hopes of him altering his perfect plan just to appease them.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline fencerider (OP)

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2017, 11:16:34 PM »
well Drich If you don't know that fasting is in the new testament then I guess you didn't bother to read it.

You missed the point of the post. I asked for god to prove he exists before I started any of the things in the list. If you ask god to prove that he exists and nothing happens, the first thought comes into your mind is maybe I didn't ask right. So you try asking in another way. If you try every way you can think of and still nothing happens sooner or later you get to realize your wasting your time.
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM

Offline fencerider (OP)

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2017, 11:19:09 PM »
Oh, no. You did it all wrong. See, first you have to be baptized in Jesus name. Or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Or was it Holy Spirit? You know how fickle God can be, you have to use the right name(s) or it doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you're baptized by full emersion. Sprinkling doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you really mean it when you do it, or it's invalid. Actually, baptism is just an expression of faith, so none of that matters anyway. You need to be baptized in the Spirit to be born again. Make sure you ask specifically to be saved. It's not enough to believe. You have to confess you believe, because God is omniscient, but he still needs you to tell him these things. Keep praying until you feel the Holy Ghost in you and start speaking in tongues. Or don't. I can't remember. But anyway, one thing is crystal clear. If you're an ex-Christian now, you were obviously never a true believer to begin with.
you forgot grovelling. get on the floor.
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM

Offline Baruch

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2017, 11:20:48 PM »
20 days of fasting is not a big deal. When I was younger I would go with out eating for 3 or 4 days just because I wasn't hungry.

I see why you were put in this asylum then ;-)
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2017, 11:21:59 PM »
well Drich If you don't know that fasting is in the new testament then I guess you didn't bother to read it.

You missed the point of the post. I asked for god to prove he exists before I started any of the things in the list. If you ask god to prove that he exists and nothing happens, the first thought comes into your mind is maybe I didn't ask right. So you try asking in another way. If you try every way you can think of and still nothing happens sooner or later you get to realize your wasting your time.

You still asked wrong.  But you have lots of company.  You are more a Pharisee than I am.
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2017, 04:56:17 AM »
Your problem is you want to will yourself to believe X.  "will" is a different psychological category from belief.  Life doesn't work that way.  I can will myself to get out of my chair, and I am likely to do so.  You can will yourself to fly like a bird off the top of your home, flapping your arms ... but I won't take bets on your chances. 
Yes, you cannot will yourself to believe, a thing lost on most theists who apparently think that since they believe, anyone with any common sense should be able to believe anything.  Even when being coached by an old Christian Lady who told me to pray for belief, I could not understand how desire (which I had)  could create belief (which I didn't have).  In addition, the whole concept of prayer creating belief requires a belief that prayer can create belief.

Christian:  But Damit all!  You could believe if you just believed.
Me:  But I don't believe.
Christian:  But you could believe if you really believed.
Me:  Yes, you see the problem then.
Christian:  What problem?

I tried it for a year, but having no results, I altered my quest from prayer and will to a more cerebral search for evidence.  I also fashioned various God concepts that did not contradict themselves or defy reality the way Christianity does.  But doing that you end up with something you fully realize is nothing more than your own concoction, still without evidence, even if it avoids the glaring absurdities of Christianity.  At that point you realize is all it's all the same; It's all just unwarranted myths and memes that only make you happy if you actually believe them.

Will and desire are in a different psychological category than belief. I like how you articulated that.  If I were grading papers, I would mark that with a positive comment.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:00:11 AM by SGOS »

Offline Baruch

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2017, 06:49:16 AM »
When we are young, we don't know what we are doing.  Some people, after long experience, still might not know what they are doing.  People don't come with instruction books (we write our own thru experience).  We have no agreement on instruction books that are written (objectivity over-rated).  Parents have no instruction books either, so the cycle of idiocy repeats itself.

Some people don't believe in free will.  If one doesn't believe in free will, then one probably doesn't believe in will power at all.  So don't arrest me for murder, my random cloud of atoms just had a statistical anomaly.  We learn self, and free will as infants.  When infantile, we don't know what we are doing.  The lessons learned in infancy become habitual ... and we rarely attempt to revisit them, unless we are philosophers.

Philosophers are a kind of voluntary infancy ;-)  They question the common sense that almost everyone knows already.  What is common sense?  Those habits consigned to the unconscious mind.  What we share in the unconscious mind, is the collective unconscious ... but it doesn't exist apart from people ... and is purely coincidental.  Do we both like tacos, and not know why we like tacos?  Then you and I have tacos in our collective unconscious.

It took me a long time to come up with a theology that I consider reasonable ... I can understand why people give up.  I had to redefine a lot of words, I had to imaginatively project myself into the mental space of the deep past.  But I didn't use an immersion tank, or turn into a cave man ;-)  It is discouraging to realize that most religious people don't know what they are talking about.  If you get to your own solution, what is wrong with solipsism plus skepticism?  What is wrong with being happy?

Your old Christian lady was being conventional.  What she said to you, would only make sense if you already believed (as she probably did).  It would make sense to her, but not to you.  Besides that, using prayer for asking for things, even for belief, isn't its purpose, but misuse.  The primary use of prayer is to move toward self reform.  Take pride down in favor of humility.  But this requires humiliation.  Have you ever been humiliated?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:51:28 AM by Baruch »
שלום

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2017, 01:26:50 PM »
Yes, you cannot will yourself to believe, a thing lost on most theists who apparently think that since they believe, anyone with any common sense should be able to believe anything.  Even when being coached by an old Christian Lady who told me to pray for belief, I could not understand how desire (which I had)  could create belief (which I didn't have).  In addition, the whole concept of prayer creating belief requires a belief that prayer can create belief.

Christian:  But Damit all!  You could believe if you just believed.
Me:  But I don't believe.
Christian:  But you could believe if you really believed.
Me:  Yes, you see the problem then.
Christian:  What problem?

I tried it for a year, but having no results, I altered my quest from prayer and will to a more cerebral search for evidence.  I also fashioned various God concepts that did not contradict themselves or defy reality the way Christianity does.  But doing that you end up with something you fully realize is nothing more than your own concoction, still without evidence, even if it avoids the glaring absurdities of Christianity.  At that point you realize is all it's all the same; It's all just unwarranted myths and memes that only make you happy if you actually believe them.

Will and desire are in a different psychological category than belief. I like how you articulated that.  If I were grading papers, I would mark that with a positive comment.
Ya know, SGOS, that is basically how it worked for me.  I tried hard to believe--pushed and pulled at it hoping I'd hit on the right combo.  But nothing clicked.  Unity was my last and strongest try at grabbing the belief golden ring.  But it kept disappearing on me.  Finally, it dawned on me that there really was nothing to believe in except belief itself; and everybody had a slightly different view of what the proper belief was and how to express it.  So, I finally embraced atheism.  What the typical theist does not grasp is that atheism is not a belief and therefore I did not simply change beliefs.  My final step to fully embracing atheism was the realization that I no longer believed in anything and that faith was not and is not, a form of trust.  Theism has this belief and faith thing going on and I don't do either.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2017, 03:05:04 PM »
Ya know, SGOS, that is basically how it worked for me.  I tried hard to believe--pushed and pulled at it hoping I'd hit on the right combo.  But nothing clicked.  Unity was my last and strongest try at grabbing the belief golden ring.  But it kept disappearing on me.  Finally, it dawned on me that there really was nothing to believe in except belief itself; and everybody had a slightly different view of what the proper belief was and how to express it.  So, I finally embraced atheism.  What the typical theist does not grasp is that atheism is not a belief and therefore I did not simply change beliefs.  My final step to fully embracing atheism was the realization that I no longer believed in anything and that faith was not and is not, a form of trust.  Theism has this belief and faith thing going on and I don't do either.
When I attended AA meetings, there was continual pressure to believe in a higher power.  Some were adamant that true sobriety could not be achieved without it.  One guy would often end his mini sermons by highlighting the necessity of belief, and then finish with the rhetorical query, "The question is how do you believe?"  This was met with knowing nods.  He never explained how this was done, so I never knew exactly what to make of that.  Supposedly, the response to him made it seem that everyone knew how to do it, but no one ever shared the big secret.  It's like they all knew, and everyone else was suppose to know, also.  It's possible he didn't have a clue how to believe, nor did anyone else really know either, and that he just meant it to be an unanswerable question that was profound by the nature of it's own mystery.

But I think he meant it as a "seek and ye shall find" kind of thing, and that one could eventually know how to believe if they could find the faith.  This is disturbing to me for the same reasons we are discussing here.  There is no knowing how to believe.  You either believe or you don't.  There is often a knowledge base of facts or experiences behind a belief, but for unanswerable questions, there can be no knowledge base.  There can't even be reliable experiences, and the higher power issue always comes back to belief without evidence.  More specifically belief because one just believes.  I can respect that someone believes a thing, but knowing how to believe in the above context is just nuts.


Offline Drich0150

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2017, 03:07:45 PM »
In the Lord's Prayer ... not sins, not trespasses ... but debts ... per Matthew 6.  Being in debtor's prison was an immediate issue, not sin.

"Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." .... from ESV

... ὀφειλήματα ... ὀφειλέταις both of which mean "debt".  Other translations say different, but that reflects the bias of the translators.
How is sin NOT a debt?
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. This is a charge meant for those who think themselves Christian. We are to question the foundational as well as the questionable, and hold on to the truth. Because I've done this my answers may be... Different than the typical Christian

Offline Baruch

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2017, 03:37:56 PM »
When I attended AA meetings, there was continual pressure to believe in a higher power.  Some were adamant that true sobriety could not be achieved without it.  One guy would often end his mini sermons by highlighting the necessity of belief, and then finish with the rhetorical query, "The question is how do you believe?"  This was met with knowing nods.  He never explained how this was done, so I never knew exactly what to make of that.  Supposedly, the response to him made it seem that everyone knew how to do it, but no one ever shared the big secret.  It's like they all knew, and everyone else was suppose to know, also.  It's possible he didn't have a clue how to believe, nor did anyone else really know either, and that he just meant it to be an unanswerable question that was profound by the nature of it's own mystery.

But I think he meant it as a "seek and ye shall find" kind of thing, and that one could eventually know how to believe if they could find the faith.  This is disturbing to me for the same reasons we are discussing here.  There is no knowing how to believe.  You either believe or you don't.  There is often a knowledge base of facts or experiences behind a belief, but for unanswerable questions, there can be no knowledge base.  There can't even be reliable experiences, and the higher power issue always comes back to belief without evidence.  More specifically belief because one just believes.  I can respect that someone believes a thing, but knowing how to believe in the above context is just nuts.

Blind leading the blind.  For anyone, do you have something other than yourself, that is not only important, but more important than yourself?  If you hang onto that, then you have AA etc ... it doesn't have to be G-d.  At the low points of my life, a friend, a daughter, a coworker ... they have all been both important and paramount.  That is what has kept me alive for the last 14 years.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2017, 03:39:10 PM »
How is sin NOT a debt?

In the world of metaphor, a donkey could be a turnip.  The conventional theology (bleh) equates things, such as sin = trespass = debt ... Newspeak from 1984.
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Offline aitm

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2017, 03:50:53 PM »
The babble tells us if we pray. "believing", that we can tell a mountain to move and it will. Pretty sure lots of devoted folks prayed for a lot of stuff a lot less than moving a mountain...so far...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: A question for the ex-Christian atheists
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2017, 04:48:23 PM »
When I attended AA meetings, there was continual pressure to believe in a higher power.  Some were adamant that true sobriety could not be achieved without it.  One guy would often end his mini sermons by highlighting the necessity of belief, and then finish with the rhetorical query, "The question is how do you believe?"  This was met with knowing nods.  He never explained how this was done, so I never knew exactly what to make of that.  Supposedly, the response to him made it seem that everyone knew how to do it, but no one ever shared the big secret.  It's like they all knew, and everyone else was suppose to know, also.  It's possible he didn't have a clue how to believe, nor did anyone else really know either, and that he just meant it to be an unanswerable question that was profound by the nature of it's own mystery.

But I think he meant it as a "seek and ye shall find" kind of thing, and that one could eventually know how to believe if they could find the faith.  This is disturbing to me for the same reasons we are discussing here.  There is no knowing how to believe.  You either believe or you don't.  There is often a knowledge base of facts or experiences behind a belief, but for unanswerable questions, there can be no knowledge base.  There can't even be reliable experiences, and the higher power issue always comes back to belief without evidence.  More specifically belief because one just believes.  I can respect that someone believes a thing, but knowing how to believe in the above context is just nuts.
I think those kinds of people who talk that talk simply want to seem profound.  And that  they have privy to some secret christian message that only reveals itself if you become a 'believer'.  And so, to prove they are a believer and thus a christian (and saved--whatever that means to them), they espouse to know the secret handshake and secret words.  Of course their ministers talk like that, too.  So, they can wink and nod at their minister with that knowing look--'Hey, we got it, don't we!'  It's the Big Lie--the one that proves that belief and faith are real and work.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?