Author Topic: Healthcare  (Read 811 times)

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 07:25:11 AM »
Pain meds would be a good suicide option, but I don't know how to determine a surefire lethal dose.  I'm sure there's a list of dos and don'ts on the internet for ending your life.  I'd really hate flubbing the last thing I ever tried to do in life.  Just let me get that one thing right.  But pain meds are being watched more carefully now.  My doctor mentioned that some watchers are watching the medical profession more closely in recent years. 

Dentists don't seem to be under the same scrutiny.  My dentist asks me if I want pain meds, much the way you would offer a beer to a guest.  I should start accepting his offers and lay in a supply just in case, because it's harder to get pain meds than to buy a gun.  And I don't want to leave a behind a big pool of partially coagulated blood with brain parts in it for some loved one to clean up.  It's kind of thoughtless, almost like a cheap parting cheap shot you want someone else to live with for the rest of their life.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 09:08:18 AM »
Well, maybe and maybe not.  This is partly why the baby step argument is so meaningless. Here your are perceiving 5, maybe 10 baby steps.  You obviously see them as steps backwards, but that might not be the case.  I perceive them as steps in the direction that the long term plan, if one actually existed, was bound to create from the beginning. 

When a beleaguered public hammered by insurance costs rising out of proportion with inflation anticipated some relief through a traditional single payer bill, somewhere along the line a Democratic controlled congress decided that was untenable, and decided on taking a baby step.  That first step was (to me) a step away from the goal, a baby step backwards (relative to the goal).  Now the baby is gaining momentum and taking another baby step (5 baby steps using your estimate), but in the same direction as the first.  The Republicans are building on the momentum set in motion 4 years ago.  I have mentioned this fear long ago when Congress failed to remove for profit insurers from the healthcare equation.  This is the direction I anticipated.  That the Republicans can be criticized at this time is because they control all three branches of government.

I also think this problem is related to the concept of identity politics previously identified as a failure in Democratic strategy by some Democratic strategists.  I'm not sure I agree completely with the strategists but I think they might have hit on something.  For programs to be viable and popular they need to encompass the needs of the greater pool of constituents, not just those of a specific identity.  Of course, no one bill can please everyone, and if Corporate America has to have their concerns met first, well then we are pretty much fucked, anyway. 

But identity politics makes promises to select targets.  In this case to the very poor.  The middle class, especially the growing lower middle class is forced to bear the brunt of the hardship of rising insurance and lower pay, with no alternative to opt out.  I do like the idea of everyone being insured, but if I were in a position where I couldn't afford it, I'd prefer not to be forced buy what I can't afford, especially if I'm young and healthy.  Single payer would avoid this.



So cutting millions of people from health care, cutting huge amounts of funding from planned parenthood and Medicaid, and giving corporations breaks at the expense of literally everyone else is just me making mountains out of molehills.

I'm sorry, but when millions of people are being fucked over, when literally every health organization (see; actual experts) agree that this health care bill, using the model the house voted on, say this is one of the most destructive and immoral bills to be voted on, when it has to be hidden in absolute secrecy because it is so immoral... I'm sorry, but I am more concerned about both what my morals and actual experts say, and they both agree, to believe that this is just, "baby steps", and that they might not be in the wrong direction.

When you are talking about taking away millions of people's fundamental right in a civilized society to their health... tell me one other society that would say this might not be a bad thing, or that it's being over exaggerated.

“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 09:36:19 AM »
All that is nothing compared to Agenda 21 and the coming culling of anyone who isn't a millionaire, maid, butler or chauffeur.  The Elite are that nuts.  With most of humanity dead, they won't even need to spend too much precious money on robots ... there won't be consumers to shill to.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2017, 09:38:50 AM »
Pain meds would be a good suicide option, but I don't know how to determine a surefire lethal dose.  I'm sure there's a list of dos and don'ts on the internet for ending your life.  I'd really hate flubbing the last thing I ever tried to do in life.  Just let me get that one thing right.  But pain meds are being watched more carefully now.  My doctor mentioned that some watchers are watching the medical profession more closely in recent years. 

Dentists don't seem to be under the same scrutiny.  My dentist asks me if I want pain meds, much the way you would offer a beer to a guest.  I should start accepting his offers and lay in a supply just in case, because it's harder to get pain meds than to buy a gun.  And I don't want to leave a behind a big pool of partially coagulated blood with brain parts in it for some loved one to clean up.  It's kind of thoughtless, almost like a cheap parting cheap shot you want someone else to live with for the rest of their life.

Worked in the medical community for 20 years now.  Yes, pain meds are very closely watched, and other meds ... because of meth amphetamine production and suicidal maniacs.  Can't share the details, and neither can your pharmacist.  Pooling old meds ... this is why the police want you to turn in old meds at turn in locations.  The slaves can't be allowed to off themselves, this is the task masters job while whipping you in the cotton fields ;-(
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Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2017, 09:51:14 AM »
So cutting millions of people from health care, cutting huge amounts of funding from planned parenthood and Medicaid, and giving corporations breaks at the expense of literally everyone else is just me making mountains out of molehills.

I'm sorry, but when millions of people are being fucked over, when literally every health organization (see; actual experts) agree that this health care bill, using the model the house voted on, say this is one of the most destructive and immoral bills to be voted on, when it has to be hidden in absolute secrecy because it is so immoral... I'm sorry, but I am more concerned about both what my morals and actual experts say, and they both agree, to believe that this is just, "baby steps", and that they might not be in the wrong direction.

When you are talking about taking away millions of people's fundamental right in a civilized society to their health... tell me one other society that would say this might not be a bad thing, or that it's being over exaggerated.
I'm sorry that's all you got from my post.  I am not critical of healthcare, just to the way our leaders are trying to implement it.  And yes, some of those leaders are Democrats.  But then I was critical of ACA as soon as I saw Obama announce that the single payer option was just a teensy part of his goal anyway.  He actually signaled "teensy" with his thumb and forefinger when he announced that and semantically turned a Republican leftover from the Clinton days into a "great accomplishment" passed by a Democratic majority. 

But the bill is no better today than when the Republicans first came up with it, when I believed the Republicans were 100% tongue in cheek thinking it would never be considered.  I think the Democrats can reasonably be criticized on this one, and I will continue to demand better.  It's possible that we never will do better, and frankly at this point, I doubt that I'd be alive to see it.  But if it does happen and I am still spry enough to get off my chair, I'll happily celebrate the event with you personally over a beer, but by that time, you might not be spry enough to get off your chair either.  We might have to do it over the phone... with hearing aides.

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2017, 09:55:42 AM »
Worked in the medical community for 20 years now.  Yes, pain meds are very closely watched, and other meds ... because of meth amphetamine production and suicidal maniacs.
I'm think I may decide to rethink capital punishment and throw my support behind the death penalty, but only in cases of attempted suicide.

Offline Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 10:28:10 AM »
I'm think I may decide to rethink capital punishment and throw my support behind the death penalty, but only in cases of attempted suicide.

Living is unintentional attempted suicide ;-)  Dying is intentional suicide in progress.  We are in a world of death, not life.  We are zombies.  Praise Kek!
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Re: Healthcare
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
Well, to paraphrase Grayson: get really sick, then die really quickly.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline Atheon

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2017, 05:32:44 PM »
Solyndra? The only failed company out of a hundred or so successful ones supported by that program?
You fell for the oldest trick in the propaganda book.

Stealing Obamacare from the People will lead to hundreds of thousands of needless deaths:

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/gop-healthcare-bill-lead-deaths-216900-americans-2026/
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2017, 05:39:28 PM »
Hey, just think of all the jobs that'll be created for funeral home directors, grave diggers and casket makers!
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2017, 06:17:17 PM »
Solyndra? The only failed company out of a hundred or so successful ones supported by that program?
You fell for the oldest trick in the propaganda book.

Stealing Obamacare from the People will lead to hundreds of thousands of needless deaths:

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/gop-healthcare-bill-lead-deaths-216900-americans-2026/

Obama is the true messiah ... made everyone rich I tell you, rich ... thanks to his magic trillion dollar platinum coin!
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Offline trdsf

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2017, 12:53:48 PM »
The plot thickens -- now Senator Yertle doesn't even have enough votes to bring it to the floor.  Collins (ME), Paul (KY), Johnson (WI) and Heller (NV) have all said they'll oppose even debating it.  Even Mikey can't make it all better when it's 52-48 -- needless to say, no Dem has even indicated the slightest prospect of the merest possibility of even remotely thinking about supporting it.

On top of that, Cruz (TX) and Lee (UT) have both said they'll oppose the bill in its current form anyway.  But the changes they want, while they might attract Paul, will probably cost them Portman (OH) in addition to the other three above.

Stay tuned; I'll make popcorn.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2017, 01:15:23 PM »
The plot thickens -- now Senator Yertle doesn't even have enough votes to bring it to the floor.  Collins (ME),...

Stay tuned; I'll make popcorn.
I'll have some of that.  I don't follow many individual senators the way you do.  Some I do, but not as many.  I just remember Collins leaning toward voting for Obamacare way back when, but the powers that be put an end to that in short order.  I assume she had pressure applied, but she may just have been talking about it to gain some kind of negotiating power within her party, possibly something not even related to health care.  Now is a bit different.  More Republicans are fighting the current bill, but they have a way of falling in line when the final vote comes, and their ulterior motives during the foreplay are not always that apparent.

But remember Trump said, "This is going to be a wonderful bill, a really wonderful bill that people are going to think is just wonderful."

Offline trdsf

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2017, 03:33:35 PM »
I'll have some of that.  I don't follow many individual senators the way you do.  Some I do, but not as many.  I just remember Collins leaning toward voting for Obamacare way back when, but the powers that be put an end to that in short order.  I assume she had pressure applied, but she may just have been talking about it to gain some kind of negotiating power within her party, possibly something not even related to health care.  Now is a bit different.  More Republicans are fighting the current bill, but they have a way of falling in line when the final vote comes, and their ulterior motives during the foreplay are not always that apparent.

But remember Trump said, "This is going to be a wonderful bill, a really wonderful bill that people are going to think is just wonderful."
The ones that are in purple or even purple-leaning red states, however, are looking at those recent special elections where 'safe' Republican districts turned into nailbiters.  Now, 2018 doesn't look like a good opportunity for the Dems to make advances in the Senate; their only realistic chances are in Nevada and Arizona, and they're going to have some difficult seats to hold on to (Indiana, Florida, Missouri, New Mexico and North Dakota are all up), and there's an outsidemost chance that Cruz's unpopularity might give the GOP a case of nerves in Texas, but I don't expect him to lose.

But if the Dems hold the line in the Senate in 2018 against bad odds and make strong advances in the House (or even, dare I hope, win it), in 2020 and beyond Repubs in purple and blue states are going to be running scared shitless -- especially in 2020 if the Democratic presidential candidate has long coat-tails.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Offline Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2017, 04:04:35 PM »
I'll have some of that.  I don't follow many individual senators the way you do.  Some I do, but not as many.  I just remember Collins leaning toward voting for Obamacare way back when, but the powers that be put an end to that in short order.  I assume she had pressure applied, but she may just have been talking about it to gain some kind of negotiating power within her party, possibly something not even related to health care.  Now is a bit different.  More Republicans are fighting the current bill, but they have a way of falling in line when the final vote comes, and their ulterior motives during the foreplay are not always that apparent.

But remember Trump said, "This is going to be a wonderful bill, a really wonderful bill that people are going to think is just wonderful."

Congress = Ali Baba and the 500 thieves.
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