Author Topic: Healthcare  (Read 818 times)

Offline SGOS (OP)

Healthcare
« on: June 23, 2017, 10:03:13 AM »
For the last week, my home page has been inundated with reports, opinion, and speculation about the repeal of Obamacare.  The issue won't go away, even though there is little new or unexpected to report about.  At one time my belief was that Republicans may try to repeal it or maybe not.  But the only news that changed that limited view was "It might not be that easy for Republicans to do this."  That first report from about a year ago outlined the difficulties in a methodical way, and the falder rahl since has been little more than playing out that first insightful scenario since then.

So in spite of all the recent coverage, I'm developing bored attitude that maybe it's about time for Congress to shit or get off the pot.  Dump it, tweak it, or keep it.  Whatever happens happens.  No amount of coverage is going to change what Congress can or can't do, or what it ultimately does.  I think we all know the main points of how this will play out, 24 hour coverage not withstanding.

When Obamacare was passed, it in no way resembled the single payer Canadian/European format that probably 95% of the electorate imagined it would be.  The resulting lack luster support created a diversion that became this deformed puppy in the litter of ideas that no one knows what to do with.  Not enough people want to kill it.  Not enough want to keep it alive.  So it just lays there barely able to sustain itself, but not quite ready to die, while Congress, for lack of anything else to do, pokes it with sticks.

If it does eventually die, it reopens a path to truly affordable healthcare once again.  Although, this will take some time, because healthcare has left a bad taste in Congress, and the public vision of healthcare today is something no longer worth getting all that excited about.  Today, the value of healthcare is driven mostly by it's usefulness as a political football.  The concept of serving the public good, as it often seems, has been lost.

 

Offline Atheon

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 10:22:39 AM »
Obamacare is the doorway to a better system. Obamacare overall has been a good thing which has vastly lowered the cost of healthcare and saved numerous lives. It has a lot of room for improvement, but the improvement won't come unless the Republicans are eliminated from the picture.

The Republicans aim to destroy healthcare completely and take Planned Parenthood with it. Their intention is to kill off poor and minority Americans. The Republicans are nothing short of pure evil.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2017, 10:37:47 AM »
Obamacare is the doorway to a better system. Obamacare overall has been a good thing which has vastly lowered the cost of healthcare and saved numerous lives. It has a lot of room for improvement, but the improvement won't come unless the Republicans are eliminated from the picture.

The Republicans aim to destroy healthcare completely and take Planned Parenthood with it. Their intention is to kill off poor and minority Americans. The Republicans are nothing short of pure evil.
I won't disagree with most of that, but I think Obamacare was a doorway that will retard achieving the eventual goal.  Having said that, I hope I am wrong.  I would love to be wrong.  I've heard the baby step argument used to support Obamacare.  I'm just not as enthusiastic or convinced about it as some.  Imagine the Republicans trying to repeal single payer as envisioned by most.  If Republicans have a problem repealing Obamacare as it now stands, consider how politically suicidal it would be to repeal a program that helps everyone.

Online Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 01:13:32 PM »
Free ponies for everyone!  Until then, run around in a circle barking at every R-party rumor.  D-party folk are so predictable.
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Online Hakurei Reimu

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 09:57:49 PM »
If Obamacare is repealed, people will be reminded, very very quickly, why it was enacted in the first place, and this time they are going to be very angry.
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Online Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 12:35:07 AM »
If Obamacare is repealed, people will be reminded, very very quickly, why it was enacted in the first place, and this time they are going to be very angry.

OK, but I predict the NRA will win ;-(  Obamacare isn't free medicine, it is a fraud and a tyranny ... that is falling apart, just like all the other stuff Obama tried.  Solyndra much?  If you are for free medicine ... I can support that.  Forget any insurance scheme.  If you have an insurance scheme, no matter what your party, you are a fraud, or a shill for the insurance agents.  But free medicine has never been proposed by any party ... wonder why?
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Offline Mermaid

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 08:40:08 AM »
If Obamacare is repealed, people will be reminded, very very quickly, why it was enacted in the first place, and this time they are going to be very angry.
I doubt that very much. People have been able to rationalize unbelievable things in the current administration, I don't think there will be any trouble whatsoever in rationalizing or spinning healthcare (or lack thereof) into a positive thing.

We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 09:44:49 AM »
Obamacare isn't free medicine
It's not free, but I don't know who is saying it is.  It is no more free than medical insurance before Obama.  It attempts to provide insurance for everyone by forcing everyone to buy insurance or find someone else to buy it for them.  I doubt that Obama himself would deny that, although his explanation would involve the usual politically post-modernistic dance routines.

it is a fraud and a tyranny
I realize this is an expression of personal distaste, rather than attempt to describe a thing with precise accuracy, and I hate to nit pick, but Obamacare is not a fraud, and no one has violated any criminal laws to enact it.  I think you can make a case that it violates certain self righteous attitudes of some about their personal freedom.  But it doesn't break any existing laws.  I don't know what you mean about it being a tyranny.  I suppose that is also an expression of distaste.

is falling apart,
I agree.  It has been under attack since its inception, even by Democrats that almost immediately excused certain groups originally forced to fund it from participating.  There is something unsolid about it's structure, which makes it vulnerable as a political target, and supported half heartedly by the half that accepts it, and as most will admit it needs to be fixed.  Here "being fixed" signals a danger for the act.  For many, "fixing" means to repeal.  For Donald Trump, it means simply tweaking it a bit and putting the Trump Label on it.   So far, the big concerns like major insurers withdrawing from states hasn't been addressed, at least to my knowledge.



Online Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2017, 01:09:14 PM »
It's not free, but I don't know who is saying it is.  It is no more free than medical insurance before Obama.  It attempts to provide insurance for everyone by forcing everyone to buy insurance or find someone else to buy it for them.  I doubt that Obama himself would deny that, although his explanation would involve the usual politically post-modernistic dance routines.
I realize this is an expression of personal distaste, rather than attempt to describe a thing with precise accuracy, and I hate to nit pick, but Obamacare is not a fraud, and no one has violated any criminal laws to enact it.  I think you can make a case that it violates certain self righteous attitudes of some about their personal freedom.  But it doesn't break any existing laws.  I don't know what you mean about it being a tyranny.  I suppose that is also an expression of distaste.
I agree.  It has been under attack since its inception, even by Democrats that almost immediately excused certain groups originally forced to fund it from participating.  There is something unsolid about it's structure, which makes it vulnerable as a political target, and supported half heartedly by the half that accepts it, and as most will admit it needs to be fixed.  Here "being fixed" signals a danger for the act.  For many, "fixing" means to repeal.  For Donald Trump, it means simply tweaking it a bit and putting the Trump Label on it.   So far, the big concerns like major insurers withdrawing from states hasn't been addressed, at least to my knowledge.

Misunderstanding.  No medical insurance is medical care.  That is bait and switch by politicians of both parties (and their insurance agents).  I didn't say ... Obamacare was free, or that having Obamacare means free medical care (I know now much deductible a Bronze plan has).  It is simply fraud ... all medical insurance is ... as a math formula it can only fail, and the insurance companies know this, unless they have unlimited money from the Fed, that they can money launder before paying the doctors etc.

Pay the patients directly (thru free vouchers from IRS for example) who then use them for medical care ... and when the vouchers get back to the government, and get audited by the IRS ... the IRS can run herd on the doctors and pharma.  IRS takes fraud seriously, and Medicare now is overrun with fraud.

But yes, focus on the R party or on Trump ... that is the issue, not medical care (the issue is who is our enemy and how can we screw them over).

Major insurers withdrawing from counties and states ... was baked in at the time in those secret meetings that were held.  It had to happen, as long as the Fed doesn't freely give unlimited funds directly to the insurance companies.  D party secret meeting are just like the secret energy company meetings Cheney held when he was in office.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 01:11:11 PM by Baruch »
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Online Shiranu

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 01:52:02 PM »
The Republican Senate bill, assuming it's like the Houses (which there is no reason to assume it's not given the absolute shame and deceit they have shown about it), is not just repealing Obamacare... it's taking our health care back 5, 10 steps and fucking over millions upon millions of people.

If it's being portrayed as a repeal of Obamacare instead of the implementation of Trumpcare/Republicancare, then the media is doing a great disservice to the American people by not telling them just how fucked over they are going to get.
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline trdsf

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2017, 04:06:11 PM »
If there's any good news about the Senate bill, it's that not only are the GOP senators representing purple states (Collins, Heller, Portman, probably a couple others) are hesitant to sign on out of fear of having "s/he took away your coverage" used against them in their next race, but also the nutjobs like Paul and Cruz are against it because it's not evil enough for them.  And several others in safe seats, like Alaska's Murkowski, have been making not very supportive noises.

So right now, Senator Yertle... er, McConnell is having trouble locking down 40 votes, much less 51.  It may be possible that he doesn't even have the votes to defeat a filibuster.
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Re: Healthcare
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 09:15:27 PM »
If Obamacare is repealed, people will be reminded, very very quickly, why it was enacted in the first place, and this time they are going to be very angry.
Maybe.  But apparently a lot of these people are grade A morons who'd believe that the moon is made out of cream cheese if daddy Trump tweeted it.

Some people will undoubtedly be angry.  But will enough people mobilize to get Obamacare reenacted or spur Congress on to enact (dare to dream) universal healthcare?  That's not clear.

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 09:37:49 PM »
The Republican Senate bill, assuming it's like the Houses (which there is no reason to assume it's not given the absolute shame and deceit they have shown about it), is not just repealing Obamacare... it's taking our health care back 5, 10 steps.
Well, maybe and maybe not.  This is partly why the baby step argument is so meaningless. Here your are perceiving 5, maybe 10 baby steps.  You obviously see them as steps backwards, but that might not be the case.  I perceive them as steps in the direction that the long term plan, if one actually existed, was bound to create from the beginning. 

When a beleaguered public hammered by insurance costs rising out of proportion with inflation anticipated some relief through a traditional single payer bill, somewhere along the line a Democratic controlled congress decided that was untenable, and decided on taking a baby step.  That first step was (to me) a step away from the goal, a baby step backwards (relative to the goal).  Now the baby is gaining momentum and taking another baby step (5 baby steps using your estimate), but in the same direction as the first.  The Republicans are building on the momentum set in motion 4 years ago.  I have mentioned this fear long ago when Congress failed to remove for profit insurers from the healthcare equation.  This is the direction I anticipated.  That the Republicans can be criticized at this time is because they control all three branches of government.

I also think this problem is related to the concept of identity politics previously identified as a failure in Democratic strategy by some Democratic strategists.  I'm not sure I agree completely with the strategists but I think they might have hit on something.  For programs to be viable and popular they need to encompass the needs of the greater pool of constituents, not just those of a specific identity.  Of course, no one bill can please everyone, and if Corporate America has to have their concerns met first, well then we are pretty much fucked, anyway. 

But identity politics makes promises to select targets.  In this case to the very poor.  The middle class, especially the growing lower middle class is forced to bear the brunt of the hardship of rising insurance and lower pay, with no alternative to opt out.  I do like the idea of everyone being insured, but if I were in a position where I couldn't afford it, I'd prefer not to be forced buy what I can't afford, especially if I'm young and healthy.  Single payer would avoid this.


Online AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2017, 10:03:30 PM »
We keep the suicide option available here if our health ever gets bad enough and we have no ability to see a doctor when we need it. I have absolutely no qualms about people opting out of life when our government does everything it can to make life miserable. Stockpiling pain medication?  We never throw them away. I don't know that we stockpile, but we're certainty not tossing pain relief away on some fucking principle.
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Online Baruch

Re: Healthcare
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 12:32:34 AM »
We keep the suicide option available here if our health ever gets bad enough and we have no ability to see a doctor when we need it. I have absolutely no qualms about people opting out of life when our government does everything it can to make life miserable. Stockpiling pain medication?  We never throw them away. I don't know that we stockpile, but we're certainty not tossing pain relief away on some fucking principle.

Pain meds are targeted to W Virginia and other strange select locations ... it is the Tuskegee experiment all over again ... though not necessarily on colored folk.  The CIA is in charge of drug distribution ... it makes sense that they are also in charge of prescription pain killers.
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