Author Topic: creation/evolution  (Read 3380 times)

Offline Drich0150 (OP)

creation/evolution
« on: June 19, 2017, 04:13:29 PM »
In my last post I answer a question "who did Adam's son's mary" With: the evolved man outside the garden.

Then I relaize I never shared my version of Origins with you

Very simply put, I point out their is no time line between the creation of man and the fall of man. I also point out that outside of details of creation itself everything mentioned, takes place in the Garden. Basically between the four rivers that define it, God created a picture of the world that would be consistent with the evolutionary progress of man at the time of the fall. (whatever evolution says was from the beginning to about 6000 years ago)

Evolved man or "monkey man" (man who developed outside the Garden)  is man without a soul, and In the Garden Man the one whom God breathed life into, would be man with a soul. Keeping in mind that the Genesis 2 account is a garden only account.

 That would leave room for whole complete fossil record that could not biblically be reconciled before. meaning how ever long science needs from the beginning to the fall of man could have happened while adam and eve were in the garden. It also explains the city Cain moved to and the wives and husbands the children of Adam and Eve took for themselves. (They intermingled with monkey man/woman and pass their gift/soul onto their children.)

Now I know the goto verse to disprove this is in Genesis 5:4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

In the English it seems that Adam's total existence was 930 years. But when we look at the Hebrew the word that is translated "lived" is:Chaya it means:1) to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life etc... (In short Mortal life)

At the fall Adam's eternal existence with God died as promised in Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

When they were exiled they were given "Chay" which means a Mortal life, of plants, of animals, dependent on water.
Genesis 3:
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

At this point Adam's immortality ended and his clock started on his 930 years his "chay/mortal life." These were all of the days He spent on THIS Earth. (not the Garden/Presents of God/Heaven)


How do we know they were immortal in the Garden with God? because of Genesis 2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

Amongest those trees was the tree of life. What did the tree of life do?

Genesis 3:22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

So to recap:
God created Man and woman and placed them in the garden. They could have been there a day before eating the forbidden fruit or they could have been there the 900 million bazillion years the scientist believe it took to evolve. Why? because there is no recorded time time between: "In the beginning" and the fall of man. Only speculation because we can count the generations back 6000 or so years.

When in fact all we can really say is that man has been out of the Garden 6000 or so years. We know the Garden was a sanctuary, and that God kept Man created in His image there for an undisclosed amount of time. This does not means the rest of the world did not have to evolve as the undeniable fossil record proves.

Something very important to note this is NOT "Gap theory" or Creation theory as made popular in the 17 century. Even though the empty term Gap Creation theory can apply, as far as I know this is something very new.

Why is it important to distance this theory from Gap creation theory?? Because it combines the unmolested Genesis account AS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, with the evolutionary data we have discovered and can not other wise reconcile. Without Adding anything to scripture or taking anything away. This also explains several other creation "paradoxes" that atheist tend to use to disprove the genesis account.

I have only taken the face value account of Genesis and lined the holes up with the holes in the evolutionary account of origins and they fit together perfectly by simply leaving out the time line the church and others put on the creation narritive.


Note: before this all gets out of hand, know I'm not teaching this nor am I saying God say whatever.. This is one of many possiblities as to the origins of man and this world. This to me simply assimilated both narritives into a neat little package I'VE never heard discussed before unless I brought it up.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 06:09:12 PM by Drich0150 »
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. This is a charge meant for those who think themselves Christian. We are to question the foundational as well as the questionable, and hold on to the truth. Because I've done this my answers may be... Different than the typical Christian

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 04:38:43 PM »
1. Where are you getting this from?

2. Adam was not the last man in the Bible to have lived an unnaturally long life, so your explanation for how he was so old does not help.

3. So if Adam and Even had children in the Garden of Eden, as you suggest, then did God punish them for things their parents did?

4. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that God allowed man to evolve over time, and that before Adam, none of them had a soul. Are you're saying that the children of Adam and Eve married and had children evolved humans who had no souls?

5. How do you account for the Bible saying that God created Adam on the sixth day of creation? If man evolved over millions of years, then creating Adam from clay and Eve from his rib would be completely unnecessary. Humans are already there! And if they were created before evolution came up with humans, then what was the point of waiting for evolution to happen? Humans are already there!

6. Did death exist before the Fall? If not, your explanation does not explain the fossil record at all. Also, evolution requires death to work, because the ones most likely to survive and have children before dying would pass on their genes. But if death did happen before the Fall, then you contradict the Bible, which says that God cursed the land and the animals after Adam sinned.

7. The creation story still says that the Earth and was filled with vegetation before the sun and stars were made, that sea life and aviary life were created at the same time, and that humans and all life on land was created on the same day. Even if you weave microscopic life and dinosaurs into the narrative, and even if you treated each day as symbolic of a period of hundreds of millions of years, the order of things would still be WAY off. Also note that the Bible never says that God created the waters. It was already there.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2017, 05:36:23 PM »
OP,

Present evidence, or I don't care what bends and twists you force your brain into.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Drich0150 (OP)

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 05:56:55 PM »
1. Where are you getting this from?
was shown in a waking dream after praying over the matter looking for an answer. the whole thing including my first draft took like 20 mins

Quote
2. Adam was not the last man in the Bible to have lived an unnaturally long life, so your explanation for how he was so old does not help.
The counter to the argument is Adam live 930 meaning from his creation by God the first time. which means then the garden is 6000 old if you count back from now through Christ and the genealogies found in the book of MT to Adam. but through my explanation Adam live 930 after the garden which means the fall of man took place 6000, not the birth of adam which makes the Garden/gen 2 a whole lot older.

Quote
3. So if Adam and Even had children in the Garden of Eden, as you suggest, then did God punish them for things their parents did?
they didn't have kids in the garden. they had them outside the garden when the bible says they did. think of the garden as a fish bowl where time stood still for billions of years. and the rest of the world evolves naturally like science says it does.
Quote

4. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that God allowed man to evolve over time, and that before Adam, none of them had a soul.
/quote] not allow to preach but if you look after day seven and God rests in Genesis 2 the chapter describes a second creation which is out of sequence of chapter 1. that is because it does not describe the creation of the heaven and earth but of what happened day 3 1/2 outside the garden, and God builds the garden and everything inside it sometime on the third day. so everything that happens in genesis from then on happens in the garden at it's own pace, while the rest of the world is left to evolve on it's own
Quote
Are you're saying that the children of Adam and Eve married and had children evolved humans who had no souls?
no souls right, because God gave Adam "the breath of life which translates 'living soul' the 6th day man was just man made in the image of God. we simply assume his name is adam after the man made in the garden, but nothing in gen 1 or 2 says they are the same man.

Quote
5. How do you account for the Bible saying that God created Adam on the sixth day of creation?
you mean monkey man or evolved man.. as before nothing says this man made in God's image was the Adam God gave a soul.
Quote
If man evolved over millions of years, then creating Adam from clay and Eve from his rib would be completely unnecessary.
Remember God created eve in the garden on a literal day three women would not evolve for billions of years.
Quote
Humans are already there!
or rather the seedsof humanity.
Quote
And if they were created before evolution came up with humans, then what was the point of waiting for evolution to happen? Humans are already there!
genetic stock for the sons and daughters of adam to breed with so that they would fill the world, and eventually heaven with saved souls.
Quote
6. Did death exist before the Fall?
not in the garden

Quote
If not, your explanation does not explain the fossil record at all.
there were never any fossils found in the purposed garden site.

Quote
Also, evolution requires death to work, because the ones most likely to survive and have children before dying would pass on their genes. But if death did happen before the Fall, then you contradict the Bible, which says that God cursed the land and the animals after Adam sinned.
what happens in the garden stayed in the garden. the rest of the world evolved naturally.
Quote
7. The creation story still says that the Earth and was filled with vegetation before the sun and stars were made,
holy crap dude. God made light on day one what the friggen problem is? can you not phathom light with out the sun? seriously never turned on a light bulb? do you think if we can rig a light bulb God (who idk is described of being made of light/the substance made on day one with out the SUN) couldn't figure out how to illuminate the earth on a cloudy day? Maybe this explains how our oldest species of plants grow far better in different light other than natural sun light.
Quote
that sea life and aviary life were created at the same time, and that humans and all life on land was created on the same day.
All you need do to resolve all of this is ask one question. Does the ancient hebrew have a modern understanding of life? The answe is no. so when you see specific creatures know the bible is not talking about specific geneus and species. it can't as those classification and names had not been invented yet. So the translators work backwards into a more simplistic zoological understanding. Ever heard the "bird bat debate?" that is some obscure verse God calls a bat a bird of the air? What if I told you the hebrew langage was not so subdivided back then and could not lingustically divide a bird from bat. for them back then two things flew birds "tsippor" and insects davar.

So like it our not what I am saying is the hebrew understanding of the study of anaimal life on the planet was.... limited. they may say bird you may say dinosaur you may primordial ooze they may say fish because how animals where distinguished were more about where they lived and what they ate then philum geneus and species.

 
Quote
Even if you weave microscopic life and dinosaurs into the narrative, and even if you treated each day as symbolic of a period of hundreds of millions of years, the order of things would still be WAY off. Also note that the Bible never says that God created the waters. It was already there.
and if every day was just a single day? and God simply seeded those species on those days?

That even exlains why He made the garden on day 3 1/2 (couldn't wait to see what was going to be what 100 billion years later.) maybe the garden was a porthole where he could see the future and what each seed would do who knows.
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. This is a charge meant for those who think themselves Christian. We are to question the foundational as well as the questionable, and hold on to the truth. Because I've done this my answers may be... Different than the typical Christian

Offline Drich0150 (OP)

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 06:06:01 PM »
OP,

Present evidence, or I don't care what bends and twists you force your brain into.

I did in the OP

or did you not understand the evidence when it was staring back at you?

I showed conclusively that there is no time line between the end of creation, and the fall of man as we all once persumed.. That means all of this could indeed have happened. Why? because if Adam's life was 930 on this world (and not incuding the garden) then the earth could have been created in 7 days and still have evolve from whatever science now says happened.

So basically because of our unwillingness to look at a traditional reading of a very old story we missed out on how the creation account can be made to neatly fit in whatever evolutionary account you want. Time is no longer a factor one you understand Adam did die on the day of his fall from grace and was reborn to serve in this life as a regular man.

In the end it shows no matter what you believe about creation it is all a matter of faith anyway.. because you no more could produce evidence that your take must exclude mine, anymore than I must include all of evolution into my creation account.
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. This is a charge meant for those who think themselves Christian. We are to question the foundational as well as the questionable, and hold on to the truth. Because I've done this my answers may be... Different than the typical Christian

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 06:19:36 PM »
I did in the OP

or did you not understand the evidence when it was staring back at you?

I showed conclusively that there is no time line between the end of creation, and the fall of man as we all once persumed.. That means all of this could indeed have happened. Why? because if Adam's life was 930 on this world (and not incuding the garden) then the earth could have been created in 7 days and still have evolve from whatever science now says happened.

So basically because of our unwillingness to look at a traditional reading of a very old story we missed out on how the creation account can be made to neatly fit in whatever evolutionary account you want. Time is no longer a factor one you understand Adam did die on the day of his fall from grace and was reborn to serve in this life as a regular man.

In the end it shows no matter what you believe about creation it is all a matter of faith anyway.. because you no more could produce evidence that your take must exclude mine, anymore than I must include all of evolution into my creation account.

All I see is a bunch of claims, Drich. And more claims to back up those claims. But never a bedrock. An insane idea supported by bible-verses. I see a vague attempt to either nulify what is proven and in failing that reconcile it by claiming your claims are on the same level. They are not. Yours are added claims without a bedrock. I don't need to produce evidence that 'my take' must exclude yours. You must provide evidence to credit what you add to the equation and otherwise, leave it at the door.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Drich0150 (OP)

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 06:29:10 PM »
sport... the claims are backed up

There is not a time line between the fall of Man and the end of creation. which make my little narrative possible. And as I said in the op this answers alot of different creation paradoxes. all of which are true and are certified
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. This is a charge meant for those who think themselves Christian. We are to question the foundational as well as the questionable, and hold on to the truth. Because I've done this my answers may be... Different than the typical Christian

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 06:38:41 PM »
sport... the claims are backed up

There is not a time line between the fall of Man and the end of creation. which make my little narrative possible. And as I said in the op this answers alot of different creation paradoxes. all of which are true and are certified

And what is it that backs it up, exactly? I honestly couldn't get it out of your OP?
Point out what in your OP exactly is evidence. Concider me an idiot. Heck, if you're right, you wouldn't be far off. So indulge me, talk to me as if I'm an idiot and explain.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 06:51:25 PM »
because if Adam's life was 930 on this world (and not incuding the garden) then the earth could have been created in 7 days
And if pigs had wings I could fly to China on one's back.

Offline Baruch

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2017, 07:00:54 PM »
I have waking dreams to, or vivid dreams, or rarely ... visions (but not hallucinations).  But I don't base my religion on them.  As Patanjali says in the Yoga Sutras ... siddhi (supernatural works) are a distraction, not the goal.
שלום

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2017, 07:34:10 PM »
was shown in a waking dream after praying over the matter looking for an answer. the whole thing including my first draft took like 20 mins

Please try to fix your quotes in the future. It's confusing to read and a pain to reply to.

So this is divine inspiration, huh? Are you a prophet now? Maybe you should consider proposing to have this canonized in the Bible.

The counter to the argument is Adam live 930 meaning from his creation by God the first time. which means then the garden is 6000 old if you count back from now through Christ and the genealogies found in the book of MT to Adam. but through my explanation Adam live 930 after the garden which means the fall of man took place 6000, not the birth of adam which makes the Garden/gen 2 a whole lot older.



Uhh... Okay?

they didn't have kids in the garden. they had them outside the garden when the bible says they did. think of the garden as a fish bowl where time stood still for billions of years. and the rest of the world evolves naturally like science says it does.

Okay... But why? Does God enjoy watching animals suffer? He didn't even try to create a world without death? Your explanation attempts to redeem the old myths of the Bible with science, but it doesn't really explain anything. I could say that dinosaurs used to drive cars, but the reason we haven't found evidence of cars was because the aliens came and stole all their stuff, and it'd be just as credible as everything you've said. Your explanations have no basis in fact, and it only brings more questions than it answers.

not allow to preach but if you look after day seven and God rests in Genesis 2 the chapter describes a second creation which is out of sequence of chapter 1. that is because it does not describe the creation of the heaven and earth but of what happened day 3 1/2 outside the garden, and God builds the garden and everything inside it sometime on the third day. so everything that happens in genesis from then on happens in the garden at it's own pace, while the rest of the world is left to evolve on it's own

I guess God just likes to fuck with us. "Man. Six thousand years from now, people are going to be finding fossils millions of years old and using it as evidence against the Bible. And Christians will continue to believe in a six thousand year old Earth and look like complete idiots to everyone else. This is going to be hilarious."

Also, just so you know, Jews do not see the first two chapters as two separate creations. The second just gives more focus to the part where God made humans.

no souls right, because God gave Adam "the breath of life which translates 'living soul' the 6th day man was just man made in the image of God. we simply assume his name is adam after the man made in the garden, but nothing in gen 1 or 2 says they are the same man.

Imagine having a wife who was fully human, but had no soul. No matter how much you loved her, you'd know she was just an empty vessel. You'd know that after you both were dead, you would never meet her on the other side. Would you be fine with that?

Actually, much of the Bible treats women like they have no souls anyway, so...

you mean monkey man or evolved man.. as before nothing says this man made in God's image was the Adam God gave a soul.

So then the humans who evolved were made in God's image, but had no soul. Most people try to justify the "God's image" thing by reinterpreting it to mean something symbolic, but I guess God really does look like a man.

genetic stock for the sons and daughters of adam to breed with so that they would fill the world, and eventually heaven with saved souls.

Why just...you know...create more than two human beings to begin with instead of using this convoluted plan of creating just two, leaving them in the Garden of Eden for millions of years, and then having more humans evolve, and then finally allowing Adam and Eve to have children? Also, you're telling me that Adam and Eve waited for hundreds of millions of years before having children? I know you're trying to avoid the problem of incest, but if you expect me to believe that Adam--the guy who couldn't resist the fruit of a single tree in an entire forest of fruit-filled trees--waited hundreds of millions of years to stick his thing in Eve... No. Just no.

what happens in the garden stayed in the garden. the rest of the world evolved naturally.

Wait a minute. The Bible says that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden after they sinned. If the land outside of the garden was already full of death, then the only land left for God to curse after the Fall was the Garden of Eden. So God cursed the garden and then said, "Now you can't enter the garden which is the same as all the land now anyway?"

holy crap dude. God made light on day one what the friggen problem is? can you not phathom light with out the sun? seriously never turned on a light bulb? do you think if we can rig a light bulb God (who idk is described of being made of light/the substance made on day one with out the SUN) couldn't figure out how to illuminate the earth on a cloudy day? Maybe this explains how our oldest species of plants grow far better in different light other than natural sun light.

You're joking, right? You have to be fucking kidding me. This is some Grade A troll shit right here. You're pulling all this shit out of your ass, and then acting like I'm the one being ridiculous? Besides, you didn't even answer the fucking question you fucking idiot. Science says that the stars existed WAY before the Earth. I don't care about God's cosmic lightbulb. The order of events in the creation story is fucked up. Even if you said that the light on the first day was the Big Bang, it would have been a much smarter response than the one you're giving. You're telling me that before God created the stars in the galaxy, he created the Earth and filled it with vegetation. Where did those plants get their necessary sunlight for photosynthesis? Oh, wait. I forgot.



The entire point of this bullshit you made up was to make it compatible with science. And when I point out when it still doesn't work with scientific understanding, you start pulling out God magic. Plants were not the first living things on earth. Microscopic organisms were. Life began in the water, not as vegetation. Eventually, plants did evolve, and they transformed the atmosphere of the planet, filling it with oxygen, allowing complex life to emerge. Your story does not fit in with this at all.

All you need do to resolve all of this is ask one question. Does the ancient hebrew have a modern understanding of life? The answe is no. so when you see specific creatures know the bible is not talking about specific geneus and species. it can't as those classification and names had not been invented yet. So the translators work backwards into a more simplistic zoological understanding. Ever heard the "bird bat debate?" that is some obscure verse God calls a bat a bird of the air? What if I told you the hebrew langage was not so subdivided back then and could not lingustically divide a bird from bat. for them back then two things flew birds "tsippor" and insects davar.

So like it our not what I am saying is the hebrew understanding of the study of anaimal life on the planet was.... limited. they may say bird you may say dinosaur you may primordial ooze they may say fish because how animals where distinguished were more about where they lived and what they ate then philum geneus and species.



So let me get this straight. The Bible, which was divinely inspired, was limited by the knowledge of the humans who wrote it? God couldn't, you know, beam the information into their heads like he allegedly did when he gave you your vision? He couldn't give humanity an account so accurate that it could only be explained by divine inspiration?

and if every day was just a single day? and God simply seeded those species on those days?

That even exlains why He made the garden on day 3 1/2 (couldn't wait to see what was going to be what 100 billion years later.) maybe the garden was a porthole where he could see the future and what each seed would do who knows.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 07:42:47 PM by Blackleaf »
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 07:48:47 PM »
An Apologetics Inventor, who doesn't understand the word "evidence".  How quaint.  How typical.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 07:57:02 PM by sdelsolray »

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2017, 08:07:30 PM »
Those old jews lived an aggregate of several thousand years, but evidently they never interacted with anyone after what would be their normal life span. Having an experience pool that large and never consulting them is really an indicator that someone is full of shit.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 01:14:02 AM »
Just a weird thought, but if you had lived some 600 years farming like Adam, wouldn't you have invented SOMETHING worth being noted in a bible?  And if it was like a plow, shouldn't SOMETHING have come before that?  Sorry, that's just the gardener in me coming out...  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: creation/evolution
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2017, 01:58:14 AM »
Drich if you go around telling people that god told you about creation in a dream, people are gonna think you're crazy. Can you discern the difference between a good argument and getting people to turn you off?

I found a white supremacist on yutube and watched a few of his videos. Maybe y'all should go check it out at truthfromgod.com. This guy says that ADAM mean ruddy; showing blood in the skin, and the only race that can show blood in the skin is white people. So earth has these ape-people from evolution and white people that were created 6,000 years ago. god only cared about his own children (white people) and the promises of the Bible only apply to them. Jesus was a white boy. The people who claim to be Jews now are imposters. Maybe what Drich says will make more sense after you watch a few of Dewey's videos ;-)

I have to say that the ideology of Dewey Tucker and Drich could turn religion on its head. Neither offers an explanation of how there could be both men that are evolved and men that are created on earth. Uhh basic question - how does species ape-man have kids with species god-man? Even if they get juiced up lookin at each other. Shouldn't there be no kids or sterile kids?

On the other hand if we are really on a planet with ape-men and god-men together I guess god cares about some of us and some of us are just f'cked.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:28:56 AM by fencerider »
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM