questions and answers anyone?

[Mike Cl]

So now because we the US are not OT jews but NT Christians we do not live under that covenant, we live under the covenant of Christ, yet the commandments stand. which is why we have the first list and not the second

No, I did not write the list.  Would you have felt better if I had hand copied that list?  The fact remains, there are three places where the '10 commandments' are written.  They are not 'listed'--we have to do that ourselves--pick them out and list them by number.  So, who gets to chose which of the three 'lists' we call the 10 commandments?  Why don't we find the 'listed' list chiseled in stone anywhere?

[Baruch]

No, I did not write the list.  Would you have felt better if I had hand copied that list?  The fact remains, there are three places where the '10 commandments' are written.  They are not 'listed'--we have to do that ourselves--pick them out and list them by number.  So, who gets to chose which of the three 'lists' we call the 10 commandments?  Why don't we find the 'listed' list chiseled in stone anywhere?

Georgia Guide Stones ;-)

[fencerider]

I think that Drew and Drich should team up sometime for a debate against Hakurei Reimu and Sdelsolray

conveniently Drich provided the first contradiction. Mathew 7 vs Luke 11. both are supposed to be a quote of what Jesus said. If two people are quoting the same person the quote should be the exact same words. If it isnt then you know somebody got it wrong. The meaning of Ma 7 is not the same as Lu 11.... lets add John 14:13-14 and John 16:23-24 if you ask anything in my name I will do it .

Just to get DRich up to speed on things that have been discussed here (I don't remember the details of who or when), the following things have been said:

1. The city of Nazareth was a ghost town at the time Jesus was supposed to live.
2. The Roman empire never had a custom to release a prisoner on a Jewish holiday.
3. The Roman empire never ordered any census in which people were required to return to their ancestral home.
there are more but my brain is out of gear

As far as errors in the Bible that you asked me to point out there is the error in Isaiah being translated the Messiah will be born of a virgin (original language says the Messiah will be born to a young woman) I suppose that is a plus for Christians; considering that there are 20-30 god-men that claim to be born of a virgin - Osirus, Horus, Buddah,....

Oh yes the 10 Commandments. all you have to do is read them to know that the lists are different.

Well the fact that there are errors in the Bible doesn't completely negate Christianity, but it does mean that no one can claim the Bible is infallible. I suppose you will have to see it with your own eyes so here are a couple of websites that have some actual lists which someone brought up on the forum. (have learned a lot from them)
http://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#jesusseminar
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

[Cavebear]

There are more manuscripts written on Christ than any other historical figure of that time period. To question the authenctity of Christ is to call in to question if there was ever a julius ceasar as again more is recorded about Christ!https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/masada-desert-fortress
Josephus seems to be on board.http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533
the bible said they eventually had more sons and daughters.

From the monkey people who evolved outside the garden while Adam and eve were safe inside apart from all of the rest of creation. and if it can't?

1.  Prove Jesus actually existed.

"There are more manuscripts written on Christ than any other historical figure of that time period. To question the authenctity of Christ is to call in to question if there was ever a julius ceasar as again more is recorded about Christ!"

There are no contemporary writings about Jesus.  His existence is not shown in any records outside the bible.  Everything about him is written long after his alleged existence.  Julius Caesar, on the other hand is well-documented by contemporaries, civil records and even enemies.

2.  Prove Masada actually happened.

"https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/masada-desert-fortress
Josephus seems to be on board."

Josephus Flavius is known to be a pathological liar. And fictionalist.  PBS Frontline http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/masada.html effectively refuted his false description of the event.  It never happened.

3.  Prove the Flood.

"http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533"

Evidence shows that there was an event that connected the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea.  It occurred about 5000 BC, way before the historical biblical times.  It was a local, not worldwide event.  Evidence suggests that local inhabitants would have had to relocate to higher ground frequently, but not have been overwhelmed by flood waters.   

The refilling of the Mediterranean Sea has also been suggested as “The Flood”, but that was 5.3 million years ago…

Your link does not prove what you think it does.

4.  Adam and Eve had 3 sons.

"the bible said they eventually had more sons and daughters."

Genesis 5:3,4  Yeah, you got me on that.  I must have missed that part.  I’ll do you a kindness, though,  and not explore the “From the monkey people who evolved outside the garden while Adam and eve were safe inside apart from all of the rest of creation” suggesting they mated with monkeys.

Unless you WANT to explain that part…

5.  If the Universe CAN occur naturally (and it can), why is a deity required for it?

"and if it can't?"

Then a deity is not required.  And if a step in a process isn’t required, then it probably doesn’t exist.  Occam’s Razor.

[fencerider]

back to the OP. Drich you just said that god says to test him. Here is a riddle for you. In Malachi the Jews? were irritating god because they hadn't given their tithe in a long time. He told them that if they bring the tithe that they owe to the temple he would give them a blessing so big they would not be able to handle it. So I got myself in that situation, didnt pay any tithe for around 2 1/2 years. Then I put myself on a payment plan guessing it would take 3 years to catch up. somewhere around 2 years I sat down and did the math to see where I was at and found out I had caught up 4 months earlier and I was actually ahead. That was 4 years ago now and in all that time there hasnt been any kind of blessing, not even a little one. I figure that either it only applies to a Jew and I know I'm not Jewish (based on my last name I can probably trace from my father's father back to the second or third son of the crown of england in the 1500-1600s. or I can trace from my mothers father back to 1800s to a pure blooded native American. nope no Jew blood in me) or maybe there's some falsehood in that book of the Bible

[Blackleaf]

On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.

[Cavebear]

On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.

Interesting suggestion!  There must have been quite an orgy and resulting pregnancy explosion among Adam, Eve and children...

[Baruch]

back to the OP. Drich you just said that god says to test him. Here is a riddle for you. In Malachi the Jews? were irritating god because they hadn't given their tithe in a long time. He told them that if they bring the tithe that they owe to the temple he would give them a blessing so big they would not be able to handle it. So I got myself in that situation, didnt pay any tithe for around 2 1/2 years. Then I put myself on a payment plan guessing it would take 3 years to catch up. somewhere around 2 years I sat down and did the math to see where I was at and found out I had caught up 4 months earlier and I was actually ahead. That was 4 years ago now and in all that time there hasnt been any kind of blessing, not even a little one. I figure that either it only applies to a Jew and I know I'm not Jewish (based on my last name I can probably trace from my father's father back to the second or third son of the crown of england in the 1500-1600s. or I can trace from my mothers father back to 1800s to a pure blooded native American. nope no Jew blood in me) or maybe there's some falsehood in that book of the Bible

Mormons will tell you that many Native Americans are Jewish (lost tribes) ;-)

Cavebear ... there are irregularities in Israeli archeology ... because politics.  There has been too much "romantic fantasy" in Biblical Archeology in general, see Finkelstein instead.  Yadin was also the equivalent of Sec Rumsfeld.  The mass suicide probably didn't happen like Josephus described.  He wasn't there then, he was back in Rome trying to save what was left of Hellenistic Judaism ... and he failed.  Palestinian Judaism had one more attempt at freedom 65 years later ... and predictably failed too.  You are a bit too pro-Roman ;-)  So Masada did happen, but not like Josephus described ... in one paragraph.  The rest of it matches the archeology.  D-Day didn't happen the way that American propaganda says it did, propaganda is useful both in war and after the war.  So are Americans professional liars?  All historians are liars, not just Jewish ones ... see Herodotus, the first great liar (historian).

[Baruch]

On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.

Local post ice-age floods, pretty big in spots, bad for you if you are caught in one.  In deserts they have sudden floods along the wadis ... bad if you are stupid enough to camp there!

[Drich0150]

Yes, Christians are antinomian ... hence going to Hell for eternity, because they are criminals with a get out of jail free card.  As are Muslims (Allah made me do it).

Book chapter and verse where the unsaved goto Hell for eternity. Jesus clearly states that we are sent to Hell to be destroyed by it's flames every time He is prompted/asked.

He does say Hell is eternial, but does not say we are or will be in it. but rather the flames of Hell will consume/burn us up.

[Drich0150]

No, I did not write the list.  Would you have felt better if I had hand copied that list?  The fact remains, there are three places where the '10 commandments' are written.  They are not 'listed'--we have to do that ourselves--pick them out and list them by number.  So, who gets to chose which of the three 'lists' we call the 10 commandments?  Why don't we find the 'listed' list chiseled in stone anywhere?

No again list one was the only list of commandmnts and there were ten.

list two included the comandment, but included bonuses and punishments for disobeying this is not a list of the commandment it is a covenant God made which centered on the commandments. The difference is one is a simple list of rules to promises God made to a specific people to get them to follow those rules. Those rules pertained to no one else other than those people.

[Baruch]

Book chapter and verse where the unsaved goto Hell for eternity. Jesus clearly states that we are sent to Hell to be destroyed by it's flames every time He is prompted/asked.

He does say Hell is eternial, but does not say we are or will be in it. but rather the flames of Hell will consume/burn us up.

Try not to be so damn flammable!  Wear asbestos magic underwear, like Mormons ;-)

[Mike Cl]

No again list one was the only list of commandmnts and there were ten.

list two included the comandment, but included bonuses and punishments for disobeying this is not a list of the commandment it is a covenant God made which centered on the commandments. The difference is one is a simple list of rules to promises God made to a specific people to get them to follow those rules. Those rules pertained to no one else other than those people.

Really?  How do you get to that position????  This is what your fav. dude, Josh McDowell (well, I don't really know if you like the guy--many fundy's do) says about it:
"Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18)."

So, the Law was and is to be abided by all.  All the commandments.  Pick out whatever list you wish, Jesus did not limit the commandments to 10--no matter how you pick and choose them.  All were sacred and to be followed.  Don't you believe that, too?  If not, why not?

[Drich0150]

I think that Drew and Drich should team up sometime for a debate against Hakurei Reimu and Sdelsolray

conveniently Drich provided the first contradiction. Mathew 7 vs Luke 11. both are supposed to be a quote of what Jesus said. If two people are quoting the same person the quote should be the exact same words. If it isnt then you know somebody got it wrong. The meaning of Ma 7 is not the same as Lu 11.... lets add John 14:13-14 and John 16:23-24 if you ask anything in my name I will do it .

Have you ever been a student of a jewish rabbi or a old school jewish teacher.. They start with a simple pretext or concept like ask good things of your father, then they build using story and example till you get what it is they are saying under your own steam.

The way the jews teach is to set the student up for personal revelation. it is more about a method of logic and pattern thinking than empty answers. They want you to know the formula that produces the right answer given any number of variables, rather than hold the right answer out for you, and not understand it Mat's example (because he is a Jew) is to begin with a simple starting point, a simple message that Christ over time developed. You can see this in other things he says about who is "good" and what "good gifts are" that mat records, when you do see those key words, they always point to the Holy Spirit. In otherwords Mat is teaching the formula which is what he happen to see is the major take away from the lesson. In other words for mat it is more important to teach you how to come to the holy Spirit that simply give you the punchline.

Luke however being a gentile like us sought the final answer and not just the formula. Both are provided so we may have the formula and the answer with luke. If we were OT jews Mat's approach would have made more sense.

Just to get DRich up to speed on things that have been discussed here (I don't remember the details of who or when), the following things have been said:

1. The city of Nazareth was a ghost town at the time Jesus was supposed to live.

proof?
https://www.livescience.com/49941-jesus-home-photos.html
Seems to me if there were indeed first century homes found in the region would indicate a settlement.

2. The Roman empire never had a custom to release a prisoner on a Jewish holiday.

And if the prisoners were not that of rome? The temple/Jews had their own internal military/police force. These are the men who arrested Christ, and why Christ was taken before Herod and before Pilate so to make an offical arrest. Herod being the figurehead of Jewish power/law and Pilate being the actual roman representative. If you remember with Christ neither one of the leaders wanted anything to do with his death. Then they trot out Barabbas. if the temple had barabas to trot out and ask which would you perfer, then it is the jewish custom of Passover which could have been the catylist for the release which Rome mearly sactioned. Why? because the temple did not have the power to detain or kill people without cause. The key here is the choice between barabbas and Christ. in making the people choose the worst of the two's deeds would be the responsiblty of the one who was not released.

Use to be the temple had ultimate authority over life and death, but since the occupation it was on the word of herod/rome or the governor/rome at the request of the temple

3. The Roman empire never ordered any census in which people were required to return to their ancestral home.
there are more but my brain is out of gear

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
I'm assuming you know that the AD/BC is off by a few years.

As far as errors in the Bible that you asked me to point out there is the error in Isaiah being translated the Messiah will be born of a virgin (original language says the Messiah will be born to a young woman)

In the hebrew or even in the koine greek the word young woman denote a girl of age but who has not had her first period yet. If she has not had her period she is not available for sexual intercourse even though 'young women' like this were being sold off by their fathers. (for domestic purposes/head of the house hold in many cases/ cooking cleaning even manage slaves.)

That said.. IF you have a young woman/ A girl who is not old enough to have had her period and by law was not legally ready for sex by her husband/the only one she is legally able to have sex with... That makes her a VIRGIN!

Not only that if she was claiming to be a "young woman"/virgin and she was prego, the jews would have simply checked. there was a ceremony to 'check the purity' of a bride to be if ever in doubt, and as her/Mary life was on the line and the fact that she lived with baby in tow means her story checked out literally!!!

I suppose that is a plus for Christians; considering that there are 20-30 god-men that claim to be born of a virgin - Osirus,

Ra, and Nut were Osirus' parents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Horus,

Isis and Osirus were the parents of horus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus

Buddah,....

The Buddha was born into a family of the kshatriya varna in Lumbini,Nepal in 567 BCE. He was called Siddhartha Gautama in his childhood. His father was king Suddhodana, leader of the Shakya clan in what was the growing state of Kosala, and his mother was queen Maya Devi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Gautama_Buddha

Sorry sport that is 4 out of 4/6 out of 6 fails.. you want to try something else?

Oh yes the 10 Commandments. all you have to do is read them to know that the lists are different.

because one list is a list of commandments and the other list is a COVENANT which contains commandments. Not supposed to be the same sport.
Commandments are universal covenants are directed to indivisuals or a specific people. For instance unles you are an OT jew that covenant does not apply to you.

Well the fact that there are errors in the Bible doesn't completely negate Christianity, but it does mean that no one can claim the Bible is infallible.

Never claimed the bible was infallible... just that none of the contradiction you seem able to compile are indeed contradictions of any sort. most of what you understand to be contradiction is in fact misinformation. or you simply do not understand the bible is a translated text which you made no allowances for.

Eitherway I can have you straighten out in no time if you like.. The first thing you need do is all the demand for me proofing my text you will ultimatly ask for... demand it first for the crap websites you get these supposed contradiction from in the first place. 90% of you propblem maybe 100% of your specific problems with the bible will go away.

That said I in no way believe the bible is not without error, the bible never ever once claimed that. so as a bible based Christ I can not claim that. however the bs you guys come up with.. all garabage. in 25 years of researching the bible I have yet to find a true contradiction.

I suppose you will have to see it with your own eyes so here are a couple of websites that have some actual lists which someone brought up on the forum. (have learned a lot from them)
http://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#jesusseminar
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

I'm assuming you like everyone else leads with their best stuff. if what you have posted is an example of what is on those websites... I'd delete those bookmarks from your browser sport as they make you look foolish to anyone in the know.

[Baruch]

Most of the people here are very Gentile ... they aren't open to yeshiva methods ;-)