Author Topic: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views  (Read 788 times)

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2017, 12:45:41 AM »
Quote
I have no problem with you believing that, but I do wonder why you talk about it here.  We believe different things, you perhaps more adamantly than I do, but I feel no need to tell people of faith about my lack of belief in a creator because I know they aren't interested, or in the worst cases, are obviously bothered by it.  What's the point of having such a dialog with them in a theist forum?

What other point would there be to have a community of freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and believers other than to discuss our philosophical differences? Its why the forums are set up as they are. Why does an atheist board have a Religion General Discussion forum if not to discuss religion?

 

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline SGOS

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2017, 06:30:28 AM »
What other point would there be to have a community of freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and believers other than to discuss our philosophical differences? Its why the forums are set up as they are. Why does an atheist board have a Religion General Discussion forum if not to discuss religion?
I can't answer that.  I'm only a guest.  But my question was why you are here?  You seem to hate the place.

Offline Baruch

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2017, 06:35:31 AM »
I need to proof read my posts better...

Maybe it wasn't you.  Stuff changes after you post.  I don't think G-d does it, but as an IT guy, I do believe in bit-rot.  Users tell me all the time "I didn't input that data".  Excuse me while I go sacrifice an old PC to my IT deity, GIGO ;-)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:38:24 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Drew_2017

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2017, 11:57:44 AM »
I can't answer that.  I'm only a guest.  But my question was why you are here?  You seem to hate the place.

I like to challenge others ideas and have my own ideas challenged. What's unique about a discussion board is it forces at least some civility. We can't shout each other down or claim we didn't say something. Its fun to match wits. Hate is a pretty strong word I don't hate this place or anyone in here. I do aggressively defend my position against withering attacks it is an adversarial board.

 
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Baruch

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2017, 12:35:03 PM »
I like to challenge others ideas and have my own ideas challenged. What's unique about a discussion board is it forces at least some civility. We can't shout each other down or claim we didn't say something. Its fun to match wits. Hate is a pretty strong word I don't hate this place or anyone in here. I do aggressively defend my position against withering attacks it is an adversarial board.

 

I agree, this isn't an adversarial board, the moderators prevent that.  And nobody is really convinced enough to change sides ... that is human nature.
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Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2017, 09:17:59 PM »
I like to challenge others ideas and have my own ideas challenged. What's unique about a discussion board is it forces at least some civility. We can't shout each other down or claim we didn't say something. Its fun to match wits. Hate is a pretty strong word I don't hate this place or anyone in here. I do aggressively defend my position against withering attacks it is an adversarial board.

 
You are a troll.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2017, 03:33:50 PM »
You are a troll.

I wonder if I call you a troll if anyone will 'like' my post?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Baruch

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2017, 05:18:30 PM »
I wonder if I call you a troll if anyone will 'like' my post?

Gawdzilla Sama and I may disagree, but he does know WW II history ... and isn't a troll.
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Offline aitm

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2017, 07:24:09 PM »
I have seen lots of mocking and ridiculing but I still have yet to see that overwhelming preponderance of evidence or data.

You've seen it. You refuse it because it dismantles the myths your parents raised you with. You are too emotionally involved now to admit you are wrong. Your ego could not handle the years you have wasted seeking only that which furthers your beliefs and running from that which challenges mythology and superstition. You have nothing that suggests there is a "line of demarcation" which divides such silliness from your silliness other than your ego's refusal to see such. You continue to contort yourself into a pretzel trying to prove you are right when the simplest answers requires the least amount of work.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline SGOS

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2017, 07:53:51 PM »
You've seen it. You refuse it because it dismantles the myths your parents raised you with. You are too emotionally involved now to admit you are wrong. Your ego could not handle the years you have wasted seeking only that which furthers your beliefs and running from that which challenges mythology and superstition. You have nothing that suggests there is a "line of demarcation" which divides such silliness from your silliness other than your ego's refusal to see such. You continue to contort yourself into a pretzel trying to prove you are right when the simplest answers requires the least amount of work.
Yeah, but what could be simpler than "God did it?"  Of course you still have to have some credible evidence to support that one.  Or maybe from Drew's perspective, if God did it, no evidence at all is actually necessary because, you know, God did it, and that God exists is a universal truth available to anyone willing to open their heart, and that he did it is self evident because you just have to look around and see what he did.

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2017, 06:40:51 AM »
Lazy Mind Syndrome.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2017, 08:41:19 PM »
You've seen it. You refuse it because it dismantles the myths your parents raised you with. You are too emotionally involved now to admit you are wrong. Your ego could not handle the years you have wasted seeking only that which furthers your beliefs and running from that which challenges mythology and superstition. You have nothing that suggests there is a "line of demarcation" which divides such silliness from your silliness other than your ego's refusal to see such. You continue to contort yourself into a pretzel trying to prove you are right when the simplest answers requires the least amount of work.

This is exactly the point. Earlier I wrote...

Most atheists declare their belief God doesn't exist as if its an incontrovertible fact buttressed by an overwhelming preponderance of facts and data

The first response I got from SGOS...

Quote
A few atheists do, but if you actually were listening to people here, it's not about a preponderance of facts and data against a god.  It's the utter absence of such data that makes belief an empty claim and not easy for atheists to hold.

Yet you say my belief is silliness which suggests you actually know what happened and how it happened and have the evidence to prove it. Lets do a reality check...

No one knows (for sure) how this universe came about. No one knows what proceeded this universe if anything. No one knows why there is time, why we exist in 3 dimensions, why mindless naturalistic forces without any plan or intent caused the conditions to allow life or why there are laws of physics. No one even knows why or how naturalistic forces came into existence. If anyone is emotionally devoted to his ideology you are. I've never called a belief in naturalism or atheism for that matter silly. I made a case for naturalism as I did for theism. I've written about facts if they came to light would change my mind. Calling an alternative theory silly is what people do to hide the lack of evidence of their own belief.

Someone, I think it was SGOS asked why I bother to post in here. Its not really to change anyone's mind I know that next to never happens and I don't care what you believe anyway. The point of view of theists that we owe our existence to a Creator isn't a silly belief. It may be wrong...but that doesn't make it silly. What would make it silly is if you actually had an overwhelming preponderance of evidence in favor of your point of view but you don't. You just have your faith in it.

 

« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 03:33:12 PM by Drew_2017 »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2017, 03:40:38 PM »
Yeah, but what could be simpler than "God did it?"  Of course you still have to have some credible evidence to support that one.  Or maybe from Drew's perspective, if God did it, no evidence at all is actually necessary because, you know, God did it, and that God exists is a universal truth available to anyone willing to open their heart, and that he did it is self evident because you just have to look around and see what he did.

The simpler explanation is nature did it. Nature caused it self to exist (or always existed) and eventually turned into a universe that had the right conditions to cause intelligent life. No knowledge needed, no engineering degree required just luck and happenstance. Why would anyone be skeptical of that claim? And we do know nature exists all you have to do is look around and see what nature did.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Baruch

Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2017, 04:17:14 PM »
A more abstract, less time-focused argument please.  It is possible to make an argument without presuming to know the early Universe, or what came before the Universe or what might exist outside the Universe (including other universes).  This is familiar from mathematical proofs.

A schemata of dependence:

1. Two things are independent ... neither logically depend on each other
2. Two things are unilaterally dependent ... one depends logically on the other, but not in both directions
3. Two things are collaterally dependent ... one depends logically on the other, but in both directions

Where does the idea of Creator and created fit into this schemata?  Can you justify your choice?

In what way would a computer simulation depend on the programmer?  In Aristotelian teleology (the ends justify the means) .. the program necessarily calls into being, the programmer who writes it.  Modern science only allows that the programmer calls the program into being.  But I can also imagine that they are just a coincidence (per Descartes) or that they are dialectical (they predicate each other).
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Re: Fewer Americans Than Ever Hold Creationist Views
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2017, 05:26:37 PM »
The simpler explanation is nature did it. Nature caused it self to exist (or always existed) and eventually turned into a universe that had the right conditions to cause intelligent life. No knowledge needed, no engineering degree required just luck and happenstance. Why would anyone be skeptical of that claim? And we do know nature exists all you have to do is look around and see what nature did.

This one keeps playing his broken record of incredulity.