Author Topic: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition  (Read 945 times)

Offline trdsf

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2017, 04:15:48 PM »
Two of the dumbest "rules" about English are because some medieval dolt thought Latin rules should be applied to a non-Latin language: ending on a preposition and splitting infinitives.

If I want to deliberately split infinitives and end a sentence with a preposition, I can if I want to.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2017, 07:37:00 PM »
And, while we're at it, I'm impassive about "passive voice". If you don't like the way I write, don't read it.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2017, 08:10:57 PM »
And, while we're at it, I'm impassive about "passive voice". If you don't like the way I write, don't read it.

But are you inactive about active voice? ;-)
שלום

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2017, 08:59:45 PM »
And, while we're at it, I'm impassive about "passive voice".
Sometimes it annoys the reader when passive voice is used.  But it's not a hard and fast rule, sometimes passive voice makes sense when the subject is unknown or you want to emphasize the action being done rather than the person doing it.

Great novels often use passive voice and it's rarely noticed by me.

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2017, 07:05:34 AM »
I had a bimbette refuse to review a paper I did for a class in grad school. She scrawled "NO PASSIVE VOICE" across the first page with a Sharpie. My prof laughed and marked "A+" on it and gave it back to me.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2017, 07:44:55 AM »
I had a bimbette refuse to review a paper I did for a class in grad school. She scrawled "NO PASSIVE VOICE" across the first page with a Sharpie. My prof laughed and marked "A+" on it and gave it back to me.
I had to look up active/passive voice to refresh my memory.  Seems I discarded that rule long ago.  I can't say that I now understand how to identify which is which, but after reading the examples of each, I decided not to trouble myself knowing the difference, because it clearly is a stupid rule.

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2017, 08:09:43 AM »
I had to look up active/passive voice to refresh my memory.  Seems I discarded that rule long ago.  I can't say that I now understand how to identify which is which, but after reading the examples of each, I decided not to trouble myself knowing the difference, because it clearly is a stupid rule.
There you go, being all rational and shit.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2017, 08:12:45 AM »
I remember reading letters to the editor in the local rag that passed for news in my home town.  There was some ongoing debate about the local school system, which had its flaws (what system doesn't), but overall was pretty good.  A girl defending the system wrote a letter about how much she loved her teachers, and that she was happy to have such a school system in a small town where she lived.

The next week, some guy with an axe to grind attacked the school system with a back handed and indirect retort to the high school girl:  "Yeah well, you're so stupid that you ended a sentence with a preposition," thereby attacking the English Department by humiliating the girl.  Or maybe he just wanted to attack a high school girl because it made him feel superior.  The girl had indeed ended a sentence with a preposition, but in either case, that guy was an asshole.  Everyone knows the rule, and I'm sure she did too.  It's taught in English classes all around the country, and of course no one defended the girl the next week.  I guess a rule is a rule, even if it's an absurd rule only meant to be there for anal retentive assholes to get pissy about <intentional preposition>.

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2017, 09:39:04 AM »
I had to look up active/passive voice to refresh my memory.  Seems I discarded that rule long ago.  I can't say that I now understand how to identify which is which, but after reading the examples of each, I decided not to trouble myself knowing the difference, because it clearly is a stupid rule.
The rule is stupid, but it is insisted upon pretty fervently by many grammarians.

A good rule of thumb for detecting passive voice is known by me.  If you can add "by zombies" to the end of a sentence (or it ends with "by ____") the sentence definitely is passive.

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2017, 09:49:43 AM »
The rule is stupid, but it is insisted upon pretty fervently by many grammarians.

A good rule of thumb for detecting passive voice is known by me.  If you can add "by zombies" to the end of a sentence (or it ends with "by ____") the sentence definitely is passive.
Too much work.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS (OP)

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2017, 11:03:39 AM »
The rule is stupid, but it is insisted upon pretty fervently by many grammarians.

A good rule of thumb for detecting passive voice is known by me.  If you can add "by zombies" to the end of a sentence (or it ends with "by ____") the sentence definitely is passive.
OK, what's the bad [voice] again (active or passive)?  edit:  Forget it.  I just scrolled up.  Duh?!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:47:49 PM by SGOS »

Offline trdsf

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2017, 12:18:35 AM »
OK, what's the bad [voice] again (active or passive)?  edit:  Forget it.  I just scrolled up.  Duh?!
The only bad voice is the one that is less perfect for the atmosphere you're trying to create with your words.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2017, 02:03:15 AM »
The only bad voice is the one that is less perfect for the atmosphere you're trying to create with your words.
Exactly.

Passive voice is bad to use in many situations:

"The eastern wastes are roamed by massive dragons." Passive voice.  Bad.
"Massive dragons roam the eastern wastes."  Active voice.  Good.

Typically, you're going to want to emphasize the agent doing the action, so the agent is first and what he/she/it/they are doing goes later: Eddard read the letter.  Bronn loosed his arrow.  Arya hid in the shadows.  Stannis and his army rowed to shore.  Etc.


But every once and a while, it's better to use passive voice:

This temple was built long ago.  (The focus is on the temple, not the person who built it.  Plus, the builder is unknown/unimportant.)

Our last three kings died from assassins' bullets.  (the focus is on the assassinated kings, not their assassins)

Since Vlad has taken the throne, many nobles have died premature deaths.  (indirect accusation)

These lands are closed to your kind, elf.  (commanding tone)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:08:55 AM by Hydra009 »

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2017, 07:42:22 AM »
I write. You have the choice to read or not read. EOF
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2017, 03:41:53 PM »
Down with all rules - grammar anarchy is what's needed!
God Not Found
"I am an expert of electricity. My father occupied the chair of applied electricity at the state prison."
W. C. Fields