Author Topic: Logic Please ...  (Read 915 times)

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2017, 04:09:54 PM »

Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10



This always struck me as particularly problematic when I was still a  theist.

When Yahweh tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham has no problem accepting that it is indeed Yahweh. As if, asking him to kill his own son is completely within Yahweh's nature, as Abraham understand it.

Yet, when asking a modern Christian if god told them to kill their child, they would not do it, Saying instead, that god would not do that, it is not in his nature. But it was in his nature at one time, so, either the 'unchanging god' changed his nature, or it is still in his nature.

Many modern Christians say they would believe that it is a demon telling them to kill their child and refuse.

Then why didn't Abraham do the same thing?
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Offline Baruch

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2017, 07:27:01 PM »

This always struck me as particularly problematic when I was still a  theist.

When Yahweh tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham has no problem accepting that it is indeed Yahweh. As if, asking him to kill his own son is completely within Yahweh's nature, as Abraham understand it.

Yet, when asking a modern Christian if god told them to kill their child, they would not do it, Saying instead, that god would not do that, it is not in his nature. But it was in his nature at one time, so, either the 'unchanging god' changed his nature, or it is still in his nature.

Many modern Christians say they would believe that it is a demon telling them to kill their child and refuse.

Then why didn't Abraham do the same thing?

!. Abraham and Isaac are fictional characters
2. The character of Abraham and Isaac are an Iron Age version of a Bronze Age society ... and nomad ... not urban
3. In traditional interpretation, Abraham is being tested for blind obedience ... something also prominent in Islam
4. The Jesus of Christianity is an entirely different take on Isaac ... a meta-commentary on this story
5. In the Jesus story, Abraham is G-d and Isaac is Jesus
6. In this case, it is a test of G-d and Jesus, not Abraham and Isaac
7. The Christian believer is asked to put themselves in the place of Isaac ... in Judaism and Islam, one is put into the position of Abraham
8. So there are very real differences between Christian and Semitic culture
9. Today we live in a post-Christian society, not a never-Christian society
10. Christians understand that G-d doesn't seek blind obedience, but compassion

So is the point Jewish/Islamic vs Christian, or ME vs Western?  Ultimately it comes down to cultural preference.  Personally I straddle both.
שלום

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2017, 07:54:03 PM »
Isaac means to laugh. Ishmael means God listens. Perhaps you have to be willing to sacrifice your need for entertainment in order to have a serious relationship with God?

 Doesn't anybody look beyond the surface of these things anymore?  Especially ancient documents written during a time when poetry and metaphor was an art form.  When the king could kill you for speaking the truth, ciphers and codes were developed.

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2017, 08:14:13 PM »
Isaac means to laugh. Ishmael means God listens. Perhaps you have to be willing to sacrifice your need for entertainment in order to have a serious relationship with God?

 Doesn't anybody look beyond the surface of these things anymore?  Especially ancient documents written during a time when poetry and metaphor was an art form.  When the king could kill you for speaking the truth, ciphers and codes were developed.

Isaac's name came from his mother laughing at the idea of becoming pregnant at her old age. That's it. There is no deep, hidden meaning in the story.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2017, 08:23:45 PM »
Isaac's name came from his mother laughing at the idea of becoming pregnant at her old age. That's it. There is no deep, hidden meaning in the story.
There is if it's completely made up. Imho the Bible has far more value as a spiritual document/cipher than it does as a historical document.

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2017, 09:19:42 PM »
Isaac means to laugh. Ishmael means God listens. Perhaps you have to be willing to sacrifice your need for entertainment in order to have a serious relationship with God?

 Doesn't anybody look beyond the surface of these things anymore?  Especially ancient documents written during a time when poetry and metaphor was an art form.  When the king could kill you for speaking the truth, ciphers and codes were developed.
Ananta, this is from the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary, by Charles Fillmore. (And he is a fully Western 'christian' of the Truth mold)

Isaac, I'-saac (Heb.)--He (God) laughs; He will laugh; laughter; joy; singing; leaping.
Son of Abraham and Sarah (Gen. 18:9-15; 21:1-7).
Metaphysical. Divine sonship. Isaac, meaning laughter, signifies the joy of the new birth and the
new life in Christ, which is the spiritual consciousness of relationship to God the Father. Man rejoices
greatly in his privilege of expressing as the son of God.
According to the text, Isaac was born after Sarah was past the age for bringing forth. Besides,
she was barren, so that there was no possibility of his conception under the natural course of things. So
we, when born of Spirit, are born, "not... of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The
natural man has no power to bring forth "the new man" in Christ Jesus. So Hagar's son could not be the
chosen seed and heir. The new man is a "new creature," begotten by the divine seed, the Word. An
entirely new state of consciousness is formed, fulfilling the admonition, let "Christ be formed in you."
When Isaac was weaned, Ishmael, Hagar's son, mocked him. This is the experience of every one
in the new birth. The thoughts that are the fruit of the "mind of the flesh" rise up within and mock the
new man. Here the overcomer has a work to do. Hagar, the bondmaid and her son must be cast out.
Abraham grieves at this. So we sometimes grieve over giving up the fruits that we have brought forth in
the natural-man consciousness.
Isaac was not noted for his achievements; he represents the serenity, peace, and joy that man has
when he accepts spiritual things as real, and lives "as seeing him who is invisible."

At one time in my life I was a frequent user of this book and I also found I really liked Fillmore and his message.   But I also found it was like my favorite chocolate--very sweet and easy to consume; but it has no lasting nutrition.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2017, 10:25:26 PM »
There is if it's completely made up. Imho the Bible has far more value as a spiritual document/cipher than it does as a historical document.

History = government approved Matrix ... not really that important to me, compared the the creative minds of others now and long ago.
שלום

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2017, 01:10:32 AM »
logic??? hmmm

Noah's flood- god having a temper tantrum

Lot was just a sick parent. Even to this day people will still sell their baby girl to a brothel for a little money to buy food.

I don't bite off the ears of chocolate bunnies. I break off their head at the neck...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:53:24 PM by fencerider »
god is never early, but he is never late either... so true, so true; but I would rather have him show up late than to not show up at all. When was the last time god showed up for anything??? uh never

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2017, 06:15:14 PM »
Jehovah's Witnesses…bad Mormons?
Well, the Russians certainly seem to think the JWs are bad...


Top Russian Court Bans Jehovah's Witnesses, Claiming 'Extremist Activities'


Good for them!
God Not Found
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
Albert Einstein

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2017, 06:39:11 PM »

This always struck me as particularly problematic when I was still a  theist.

When Yahweh tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham has no problem accepting that it is indeed Yahweh. As if, asking him to kill his own son is completely within Yahweh's nature, as Abraham understand it.

Yet, when asking a modern Christian if god told them to kill their child, they would not do it, Saying instead, that god would not do that, it is not in his nature. But it was in his nature at one time, so, either the 'unchanging god' changed his nature, or it is still in his nature.

Many modern Christians say they would believe that it is a demon telling them to kill their child and refuse.

Then why didn't Abraham do the same thing?
The Lord works in mysterious ways. For all Abraham knew, his child may have grown up to be the worst human being ever, so maybe God was saying he had to die for that reason perhaps.

Look at the worldwide flood. Obviously God had no problem drowning children who were probably going to grow up to be shitty perverts and idol worshippers like their parents.

Well, the Russians certainly seem to think the JWs are bad...


Top Russian Court Bans Jehovah's Witnesses, Claiming 'Extremist Activities'


Good for them!
I agree. Those extremist Jehovah's Witnesses, and those extremist homosexuals, and those extremist atheists need to be dealt with.

'Of course, every religion has the right to criticize other faiths, but that should be done in a non-insulting manner, especially if you are talking about the faith of the majority.'

You are happy that they are getting in trouble for insulting the religion of the majority, on a site called atheistforums.com? My apologies if you were being sarcastic.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:02:25 PM by FaithIsFilth »

Offline Cavebear

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2017, 04:48:54 AM »
I suspect much of biblical names are defined after the fact.  To fit the tales.  Everytime I see a documentary that actually looks at biblical  claims, the seem reverse-engineered in bad translation by what adherents want to hear.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Baruch

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2017, 06:42:30 AM »
I suspect much of biblical names are defined after the fact.  To fit the tales.  Everytime I see a documentary that actually looks at biblical  claims, the seem reverse-engineered in bad translation by what adherents want to hear.

The names in Genesis are built the Semitic way.  But that doesn't mean the characters are historical.  English names derived from the Bible, are reverse engineered to match human inertia, or to express a religious POV.  That is how I named my daughter .. and of course now it is easy to pick a name based on its meaning.
שלום

Offline Drich0150

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2017, 08:52:18 AM »
"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals.But Why has he created them then? 7:4

"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26

Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10

"Thou shalt not kill." 20:13

Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12

It Really Bring Peace Upon The World ... A Last Statement Just To Contradict What I Just Said ...

"I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" - Matthew 10:34 ...

That's one Peaceful God Right There ...
Logic???

Maybe righteousness and what you understand to be morality are two different things.
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good. This is a charge meant for those who think themselves Christian. We are to question the foundational as well as the questionable, and hold on to the truth. Because I've done this my answers may be... Different than the typical Christian

Offline SGOS

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2017, 09:19:43 AM »
I believe Christmas Day should be celebrated by abstinence, fasting, and day long meditation in 24 hour solitude without the encumbrance of family or loved ones.

Offline Baruch

Re: Logic Please ...
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2017, 12:32:57 PM »
I believe Christmas Day should be celebrated by abstinence, fasting, and day long meditation in 24 hour solitude without the encumbrance of family or loved ones.

Per the prior quote by Drich of TrueCreed ... really reaching here ... everyone should have to go into the Sinai desert for 40 years of purgatory.
שלום