Author Topic: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch  (Read 1244 times)

Offline Sorginak

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2017, 08:30:07 PM »
But this is your mistake ... you don't regard yourself as primitive.  We all are.  But you are part of the Annunaki, right?

Nope, Minoan.
Religion is primitive, inventive nonsense.

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #91 on: March 30, 2017, 09:14:34 PM »
Nope, Minoan.

I thought I recognized you, Icarus!  Don't fly too high ;-)
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Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #92 on: March 30, 2017, 09:16:35 PM »
The fiction was the correlation between sacrifice and blessings.  Right now we allow elected representatives to spend our taxes for us.  You think there's a correlation between this system and blessings.  But do you have any proof of this?  Well there's an abundance of schools and roads and defense.  Yet, the existence of blessings isn't proof that our system is the cause.  Our system has never been scientifically tested.  Therefore... yeah... primitive minds create primitive fiction. 

Do you want to prove that your mind isn't primitive?  Are you interested in actually testing our system?  We could easily use this website to do so. 

1. We all pay a very reasonable monthly fee
2. We decide for ourselves which threads we spend our fees on
3. After a reasonable time, we elect one member to spend our fees for us

Then we'll all decide for ourselves whether our blessings increased as a result of...

A. making sacrifices directly to our favorite threads
B. allowing an elected representative to direct our sacrifices for us

Can't be a connection for you.  There are no sacrifices, and no blessings.  You don't know what those words even mean ... nor do many theists ;-)  Ape men.  Homilies from atheists?  How about music from the deaf?  Oh ... Beethoven.  Now that was a miracle.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 09:19:16 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Xerographica (OP)

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2017, 09:49:52 PM »
Can't be a connection for you.  There are no sacrifices, and no blessings.  You don't know what those words even mean ... nor do many theists ;-)  Ape men.  Homilies from atheists?  How about music from the deaf?  Oh ... Beethoven.  Now that was a miracle.
Quote
"Old-women's Grandson," ran the words of a Crow Indian's prayer to the Morning Star, "I give you this joint [of my finger], give me something good in exchange...I am poor, give me a good horse. I want to strike one of the enemy and I want to marry a good-natured woman. I want a tent of my own to live." "During the period of my visits to the Crow (1907-1916)," wrote Professor Lowie, to whom we owe the recording of this pitiful prayer, "I saw few old men with left hands intact." - Joseph Campbell, Primitive Mythology

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #94 on: March 30, 2017, 11:46:13 PM »
Plains Indian warriors went on a spirit quest, at the beginning of the career as men.  You wouldn't qualify.  I suppose you would decline the honor of the Sun dance as well.  It is my privilege to be the neighbor and friend of a Lakota spirit warrior.  Sorry, I don't think you can learn anything from him.  I still can.  Joseph Campbell had great respect for Native Americans ... so do I.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2017, 04:27:42 AM »
Pay the kid directly?  And timed?  Dafuq??  I dunno what kind of stuff you're on, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

Instead of whatever's going on in your libertarian fantasy world, my solution is just to adequately fund education (yes, through taxes) and give kids a decent education across the board.  Pretty radical solution, eh?

And yes, a tiny portion of that will go to giving Timmy a basic civics education.  As opposed to you know, not doing that.

You might wonder why I would care about primary schools at all since I don't have any kids.  Well, here's why:

(Image removed from quote.)

That is exactly my situation and exactly my concern. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2017, 09:16:53 PM »
You might be able to work hard for a living, and so might I.  And some people don't.  But there are too many who simply CAN'T and they deserve to live too.  Or, to your mind, do they?
I think you took me just a tad too seriously there Cavey..  I'm personally in favor of a guaranteed minimum allotment for every man, woman and child to survive on regardless of whether they work or not. Even the laziest fuckers on the planet deserve a square meal once a day.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline Xerographica (OP)

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2017, 03:02:11 AM »
Plains Indian warriors went on a spirit quest, at the beginning of the career as men.  You wouldn't qualify.  I suppose you would decline the honor of the Sun dance as well.  It is my privilege to be the neighbor and friend of a Lakota spirit warrior.  Sorry, I don't think you can learn anything from him.  I still can.  Joseph Campbell had great respect for Native Americans ... so do I.
From John Holbo's book Reason and Persuasion...

*****************************

Socrates: You could have been much more concise, Euthyphro, if you wanted to, by answering the main part of my question.  You're not exactly dying to teach me - that much is clear.  You were just on the point of doing so, but you turned aside.  If you had given the answer, I would already be well versed in holiness, thanks to you.  But as it is, the lover of inquiry must chase after his beloved, wherever he may lead him.  Once more then: what do you say that the holy is, or holiness?  Don't you say it's a kind of science of sacrifice and prayer?
Euthyphro: I do.
Socrates: To sacrifice is to give a gift to the gods; to pray is to ask them for something?
Euthyphro:  Definitely, Socrates.
Socrates: Then holiness must be a science of begging from the gods and giving to them, on this account.
Euthyphro: You have grasped my meaning perfectly, Socrates.
Socrates: That is because I want so badly to take in your wisdom that I concentrate my whole intellect upon it, lest a word of yours fall to the ground.  But tell me, what is this service to the gods?  You say it is to beg from them and give to them?
Euthyphro: I do
Socrates: And to ask correctly would be to ask them to give us the things we need?
Euthyphro: What else?
Socrates: And to give correctly is to give them in return what they need from us?  For it would hardly represent skill in giving to offer a gift that is not needed in the least.
Euthyphro: True, Socrates
Socrates: Holiness will then be a sort of art for bartering between gods and men?
Euthyphro: Bartering, yes - if you prefer to call it that.

*****************************

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2017, 03:16:36 AM »
From John Holbo's book Reason and Persuasion...

*****************************

Socrates: You could have been much more concise, Euthyphro, if you wanted to, by answering the main part of my question.  You're not exactly dying to teach me - that much is clear.  You were just on the point of doing so, but you turned aside.  If you had given the answer, I would already be well versed in holiness, thanks to you.  But as it is, the lover of inquiry must chase after his beloved, wherever he may lead him.  Once more then: what do you say that the holy is, or holiness?  Don't you say it's a kind of science of sacrifice and prayer?
Euthyphro: I do.
Socrates: To sacrifice is to give a gift to the gods; to pray is to ask them for something?
Euthyphro:  Definitely, Socrates.
Socrates: Then holiness must be a science of begging from the gods and giving to them, on this account.
Euthyphro: You have grasped my meaning perfectly, Socrates.
Socrates: That is because I want so badly to take in your wisdom that I concentrate my whole intellect upon it, lest a word of yours fall to the ground.  But tell me, what is this service to the gods?  You say it is to beg from them and give to them?
Euthyphro: I do
Socrates: And to ask correctly would be to ask them to give us the things we need?
Euthyphro: What else?
Socrates: And to give correctly is to give them in return what they need from us?  For it would hardly represent skill in giving to offer a gift that is not needed in the least.
Euthyphro: True, Socrates
Socrates: Holiness will then be a sort of art for bartering between gods and men?
Euthyphro: Bartering, yes - if you prefer to call it that.

*****************************

Excellent quote ... if it is a direct quote by your author, of Plato's little dialog.  So shall we go Greek instead of Dutch?  Socrates was a heretic (brilliant one like all good heretics) so his accusers had him dead to rights ... and the "corruption of youth" was a natural corollary.  Perhaps this is an accurate description of ancient Athens, and a good reason why Classical paganism was insufficiently rewarding for the masses, in a time when life was nasty, brutish and short (as was Socrates himself apparently).  The kind of sacrifice in the Jewish Temple, was not unlike this description.  Jesus opposed it (and was justifiably killed for it, same as Socrates).  Judaism itself moved on from this kind of bargaining.  But ideally, in Biblical terms, it was never seen as haggling in the souk (except to the money changers and animal sellers).  The idea was that violation of the covenant, required the death penalty.  And that as civilized people, we didn't simply jettison the covenant, but found a way to ameliorate the penalty.  The animal sacrifice, and grain sacrifice were examples of scape-goating.  Christianity still carries this substitutionary atonement, to this day.  Judaism moved on.  Prayer and other ritual behavior was the yet greater amelioration of the ameliorated penalty (for practical reasons, because there was no valid Temple to sacrifice at).  Post HaShoah ... many of us have moved on again.  I don't accept the fiction of a covenant (from Abraham nor from Moses nor from Jesus).  Too legalistic for me.  As a mystic, I simply go for familiarity, moving in with G-d, rather than being an unrelated plaintiff in a docket.
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Offline Xerographica (OP)

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2017, 03:42:53 AM »
Baruch, you're really missing the point that talk is cheap.  For God so loved the world that he voted for it?  No!  God loved the world so much that he willingly sacrificed his only son to save it. 

The other day my friend was super tired/lazy on the couch. She said that she was dying of thirst and wanted me to get her a bottle of water. I said fine and grabbed an empty bottle and filled it up with tap water. Then I put it on the table right in front of her. She didn't want to drink it because it was tap water. So I replied, "guess you're not really dying of thirst".

If you can turn your nose up at tap water, then you don't care very strongly about drinking water. Same thing if you're not willing to get off the couch and walk a few feet to grab a bottle of water.

Humans figured out early on that it's really easy to verbally over-exaggerate the intensity of our preferences...  "Oh, I'm super starving!  Please let me have some of your food!"  Humans then figured out that a person's willingness to sacrifice can be used to verify the intensity of their preference... "Oh, I'm super starving!  If you want proof then I'll trade you my tool for your food!" 

Public sacrifice is all about honest and accurate and reliable and trustworthy and believable communication of preference intensity.  This is it's very real and necessary and essential function.  This is exactly why taxpayers should have the freedom to choose where their taxes go.  You say that you really strongly care about public welfare?  Then prove it by spending your own tax dollars on welfare instead of on public healthcare. 

Let's all know what's truly important to each other and use this information to better serve each other. 

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #100 on: April 01, 2017, 03:48:23 AM »
I don't choose where my taxes go.  I don't accept substitutionary atonement, so I am not a Christian either.  Do you usually project so much?  Project the anti-you onto others and then pick fights?

I know lots of people who willingly sacrifice (I work with the military).  Same with the other public servants that citizens despise.  The leadership ... not so much.  I am going to be sacrificing my time and effort, to return to part-time teaching, for free, on my spare time.  Still working full time, for cash.  And yes, teaching for the public benefit that might never rebound to me personally.
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Offline Xerographica (OP)

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #101 on: April 01, 2017, 04:00:16 AM »
Baruch, the anti-me doesn't quite appreciate that sacrifice communicates preference intensity.  The anti-me also doesn't appreciate that we need to know people's true preference intensity in order for society's limited resources to be used as beneficially as possible. 

Do you think that it would be a great idea for members of this forum to pay $1 dollar a month and use their fees to signal which threads are the most vital/urgent?  If not, then you're the anti-me...

Quote
However well balanced the general pattern of a nation's life ought to be, there must at particular times be certain disturbances of the balance at the expense of other less vital tasks. If we do not succeed in bringing the German army as rapidly as possible to the rank of premier army in the world...then Germany will be lost! - Adolf Hitler
Quote
This decision demands a major national commitment of scientific and technical manpower, materiel and facilities, and the possibility of their diversion from other important activities where they are already thinly spread. - John F. Kennedy, Special Message to the Congress on Urgent National Needs

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #102 on: April 01, 2017, 04:05:01 AM »
Well given your like statistics ... I can only hope you find a more popular activity.  And no, direct compensation isn't always necessary .. keeps the IRS on their toes you know ;-)
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Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2017, 02:50:22 AM »
I think you took me just a tad too seriously there Cavey..  I'm personally in favor of a guaranteed minimum allotment for every man, woman and child to survive on regardless of whether they work or not. Even the laziest fuckers on the planet deserve a square meal once a day.

I am not so much concerned about the "laziest fuckers on the planet" (and many of them hold down two 30 hour minimum wage jobs, BTW), as I am for their innocent children who deserve a better chance in life.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead