Author Topic: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch  (Read 1632 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 07:26:25 AM »
That's what needs to be stopped!

All politics is local.  I am able to vote 3 days before the election in my district ... avoids the crowds.  Of course one could make elections national or local holidays (depending on the election).  This fight was going on in Ancient Athens ... it will never stop!  Conservative - rich enslave the poor.  Liberal - the poor enslave the rich.  Both are in favor of slavery.  That is the underlying problem ... America and its ongoing slavery of itself, and the whole world.  We are Exceptional!  The World owes us a cushy living!
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Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 07:28:11 AM »
Over here we don't have freedom to vote, but a duty to vote. If you don't you risk serious fines.
Despite none of our parties being what I wholeheartedly support, I've never minded being forced to vote.

And this is why Europeans are slaves.  If Americans were really free, we would have anarchs-capitalism aka organized crime.  Oh ... we have that already, cleverly disguised.
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Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2017, 02:54:46 PM »
How would this fund the decoration of public spaces?  Everybody uses them, but would anyone contribute to decorating them?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2017, 03:51:51 PM »
How would this fund the decoration of public spaces?  Everybody uses them, but would anyone contribute to decorating them?

Churches would. Fucking dead guys hanging from crosses everywhere you look...
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2017, 07:09:01 PM »
How would this fund the decoration of public spaces?  Everybody uses them, but would anyone contribute to decorating them?

Drug thugs do so regularly .. in jive code.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2017, 03:47:01 AM »
Over here we don't have freedom to vote, but a duty to vote. If you don't you risk serious fines.
Despite none of our parties being what I wholeheartedly support, I've never minded being forced to vote.

It vaguely bothers me to read about being forced to vote.  Everyone should WANT to vote.  I positively look forward to voting each and every time possible. 

I understand the intent.  If nearly everyone votes, it is REALLY hard to complain afterwards.  But the forced part just doesn't seem quite right. 

I chose not to vote in ONE election.  Carter vs Reagan vs Anderson in 1980.  I supported the 3rd Party candidate Anderson.  Mt voting line was 3 hours long and Anderson didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.  So I didn't vote.

It bothers me to this day that I didn't stay in line and vote anyway!

The good news is that voting lines in Maryland got shorter fast after more polling places were set up.  Last election, I was in and out in 5 minutes...  It should be like THAT everywhere.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2017, 04:06:22 AM »
It vaguely bothers me to read about being forced to vote.  Everyone should WANT to vote.  I positively look forward to voting each and every time possible. 

I understand the intent.  If nearly everyone votes, it is REALLY hard to complain afterwards.  But the forced part just doesn't seem quite right. 

I chose not to vote in ONE election.  Carter vs Reagan vs Anderson in 1980.  I supported the 3rd Party candidate Anderson.  Mt voting line was 3 hours long and Anderson didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.  So I didn't vote.

It bothers me to this day that I didn't stay in line and vote anyway!

I get your point. I do. But I think perception is majorly formed by what system you grew up in. Freedom is important. Extremely important.
But as a civilian and a member of society, you also have duties. Voting, here, is concidered such a civic duty.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Turns out I was wrong, by the way. We don't have the duty to vote. One can still refuse to vote or vote 'blank'. (And every time, you do have 'pirate-parties', existing on a joke or a genuine desire to give people the chance to cast aside their vote in protest.)
But we do have the duty to show up for the voting. Not showing up is what can get you the fine. So if you're there, you might as well cast a real vote or one for the pirates, yarrr.

Also, historically speaking, the reason why we have this duty to show up and either cast a vote or cast blank, is not because then no-one gets to complain. It was demanded by the socialist party to ensure that the rich wouldn't be the only ones to effectively go vote, nor that they could prohibit their workers of their factories etc to go from casting their vote. It originally was a way to protect average Joe.

E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2017, 04:20:51 AM »
I get your point. I do. But I think perception is majorly formed by what system you grew up in. Freedom is important. Extremely important.
But as a civilian and a member of society, you also have duties. Voting, here, is concidered such a civic duty.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Turns out I was wrong, by the way. We don't have the duty to vote. One can still refuse to vote or vote 'blank'. (And every time, you do have 'pirate-parties', existing on a joke or a genuine desire to give people the chance to cast aside their vote in protest.)
But we do have the duty to show up for the voting. Not showing up is what can get you the fine. So if you're there, you might as well cast a real vote or one for the pirates, yarrr.

Also, historically speaking, the reason why we have this duty to show up and either cast a vote or cast blank, is not because then no-one gets to complain. It was demanded by the socialist party to ensure that the rich wouldn't be the only ones to effectively go vote, nor that they could prohibit their workers of their factories etc to go from casting their vote. It originally was a way to protect average Joe.

I accept the major points of your post.  And your society is not exactly mine, so I have to accept your own description of it.  But I have questions.

If voting is widely accepted as a civic duty, why are there penalties?  A broad acceptance of voting as a civic duty should get into the 90% without penalty.  That should be good enough to represent the broad swath of the possible voters.

How you you feel about your government if the voting levels fell to 50% and people just paid the fee for not bothering to vote.  Would you support raising the non-voting penalty or promote campaigns to increase voting?

Here in the US, we don't have the penalty fee, but our voting is about 50%.  Part of that is politicians who want to restrict voting to their supporters.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2017, 07:16:49 AM »
I accept the major points of your post.  And your society is not exactly mine, so I have to accept your own description of it.  But I have questions.

If voting is widely accepted as a civic duty, why are there penalties?  A broad acceptance of voting as a civic duty should get into the 90% without penalty.  That should be good enough to represent the broad swath of the possible voters.

How you you feel about your government if the voting levels fell to 50% and people just paid the fee for not bothering to vote.  Would you support raising the non-voting penalty or promote campaigns to increase voting?

Here in the US, we don't have the penalty fee, but our voting is about 50%.  Part of that is politicians who want to restrict voting to their supporters.

It's a relatively low penalty by the way. Like, thirty euro's. I can't say how many voter's we'd have with freedom to vote, though I've read estimates placing it to 70%, instead of what we now have into 90% of eligeable voters showing up. At which point, it is important to note that there are people too who'd prefer it to not have it be mandatory. As times have changed, the original reason for it being a duty isn't that relevant anymore, after all. Those who'd prefer it to be not a duty aren't the majority, though. As far as I know. It's hard to describe the political factions more interested in making it a freedom to vote, as ours don't exactly align with your two-party system. But they are more 'liberal' parties like the 'open VLD' (Open Flemish Liberals and Democrats) and more (leaning towards) 'republican' parties like the NVA (New Flemish Alliance, currently the largest party in Flanders on the political level, though not in membership) and the far-out right wing party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interests (bad translation, but hard to translate). More opposed to it are CD&V (Christian-Democratic & Flemish, Groen (green), SP. A (Socialist Party Different(ly viewed)) and the PVDA (Labour Party).

But anyways, that all aside, is tying penalties to not performing duties a strange thing to do? If at my work I fail to do my duties, without valid reason, and thus fuck over a cliënt, I'd expect getting some form of 'punishment' to get back to me regarding this. Being a citizen is different but alike. I have responsibilities and I must uphold these as I would ask others to uphold theirs. And a fine for breaking that duty is just like any other form of reprimandation. At least that's how I see it. If that makes sense.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2017, 07:20:27 AM »
I get your point. I do. But I think perception is majorly formed by what system you grew up in. Freedom is important. Extremely important.
But as a civilian and a member of society, you also have duties. Voting, here, is concidered such a civic duty.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Turns out I was wrong, by the way. We don't have the duty to vote. One can still refuse to vote or vote 'blank'. (And every time, you do have 'pirate-parties', existing on a joke or a genuine desire to give people the chance to cast aside their vote in protest.)
But we do have the duty to show up for the voting. Not showing up is what can get you the fine. So if you're there, you might as well cast a real vote or one for the pirates, yarrr.

Also, historically speaking, the reason why we have this duty to show up and either cast a vote or cast blank, is not because then no-one gets to complain. It was demanded by the socialist party to ensure that the rich wouldn't be the only ones to effectively go vote, nor that they could prohibit their workers of their factories etc to go from casting their vote. It originally was a way to protect average Joe.

Americans don't believe in duty to society or the State.  Anarchists.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2017, 09:02:29 AM »
It's a relatively low penalty by the way. Like, thirty euro's. I can't say how many voter's we'd have with freedom to vote, though I've read estimates placing it to 70%, instead of what we now have into 90% of eligeable voters showing up. At which point, it is important to note that there are people too who'd prefer it to not have it be mandatory. As times have changed, the original reason for it being a duty isn't that relevant anymore, after all. Those who'd prefer it to be not a duty aren't the majority, though. As far as I know. It's hard to describe the political factions more interested in making it a freedom to vote, as ours don't exactly align with your two-party system. But they are more 'liberal' parties like the 'open VLD' (Open Flemish Liberals and Democrats) and more (leaning towards) 'republican' parties like the NVA (New Flemish Alliance, currently the largest party in Flanders on the political level, though not in membership) and the far-out right wing party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interests (bad translation, but hard to translate). More opposed to it are CD&V (Christian-Democratic & Flemish, Groen (green), SP. A (Socialist Party Different(ly viewed)) and the PVDA (Labour Party).

But anyways, that all aside, is tying penalties to not performing duties a strange thing to do? If at my work I fail to do my duties, without valid reason, and thus fuck over a cliënt, I'd expect getting some form of 'punishment' to get back to me regarding this. Being a citizen is different but alike. I have responsibilities and I must uphold these as I would ask others to uphold theirs. And a fine for breaking that duty is just like any other form of reprimandation. At least that's how I see it. If that makes sense.

I see voting as more of a "right" than a "duty".  Granted, there is a sense of duty to it for ME.  Too many here don't "exercise" that right, but I don't see it as forced.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2017, 09:11:55 AM »
You can decorate the cattle cars with hip graffiti, on the way out of town ;-( (sarc)  The D and R party ... want revolution.  Ever see Dr Zhivago?

I've watched Zhivago several times and the ending is still uncertain.  But your slightly main point seems to br that both Dems and Reps are equally revolutionary.

This is not true.  The Dems want incremental improvements to general public life; the Reps want to (and I quote POTUS reps here) "to end the Administrative State".  THAT is a revolution. 

Please stop equating moderate to fanatical.  That is not doing yourself or the general discussion any good.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2017, 09:37:05 AM »
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.

btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
The line for artistic executions is -------> that way.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 09:41:03 AM »
I want my taxes to build me a golden driveway to park the car on and if a few million people have to starve to death to make it it's their own fault. They just don't work hard enough.

The biggest fallacy is about 'hard work' .. I used to haul scrap metal for a living. It's very hard work, dirty and dangerous. Going by the hard work notion I should have the money to buy Donald Trump for what he's worth and sell him for 1/1000000000000th of what he thinks he's worth and I'd be the richest man in the world.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:44:52 AM by AllPurposeAtheist »
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 09:56:57 AM »
I want my taxes to build me a golden driveway to park the car on and if a few million people have to starve to death to make it it's their own fault. They just don't work hard enough.

The biggest fallacy is about 'hard work' .. I used to haul scrap metal for a living. It's very hard work, dirty and dangerous. Going by the hard work notion I should have the money to buy Donald Trump for what he's worth and sell him for 1/1000000000000th of what he thinks he's worth and I'd be the richest man in the world.

You might be able to work hard for a living, and so might I.  And some people don't.  But there are too many who simply CAN'T and they deserve to live too.  Or, to your mind, do they?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead