Author Topic: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch  (Read 2199 times)

Offline Xerographica (OP)

No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« on: March 22, 2017, 12:01:22 AM »
On Twitter I saw this tweet with this pic...




There's no such thing as a free lunch.  The massive amount of resources needed to build a giant wall aren't going to magically appear out of thin air.  They are going to be taken from other endeavors.  However, this is just as true for the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) as it is for a giant wall.  Here's how I illustrated this...




If you genuinely appreciate that every endeavor is going to take resources away from other endeavors... then clearly the goal should be to take resources away from the least valuable endeavors.  This is Quiggin's Implied Rule of Economics (QIRE).

Imagine that Batman is at home twiddling his thumbs.  In this case, there would be absolutely no problem with having him rescue a cat from a tree.  Batman would be put to a more valuable use.  But what if Batman isn't at home twiddling his thumbs?  What if he is actually trying to save Gotham from imminent destruction?  Then it would be a terrible idea for him to stop what he's doing in order to rescue a cat from a tree.  The opportunity cost would be way too high. 

So the most important question is... how do we determine the actual value of an endeavor? 

Market = Everybody decides for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable
Not-market = Everybody does not decide for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable

How many places are missing a market?  The public sector is missing a market.  Taxpayers can't decide for themselves, with their own taxes, which trade-offs are acceptable. 

Netflix is also missing a market.  Subscribers can't decide for themselves, with their own fees, which trade-offs are acceptable.  The NY Times is also missing a market.  So is this forum.

There's a multitude of places that are missing markets.  Therefore...

A. Markets aren't the best way to determine the value of endeavors?
B. In some cases it's not necessary to know the value of endeavors? 
C. People don't understand the benefit of using markets to determine the value of endeavors?

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2017, 12:03:14 AM »
Yes, anything millionaires don't care for, not just projects, but including the Poor themselves ... will be eliminated.  Back to Lady Bird making America beautiful again.
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Offline Atheon

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2017, 01:25:56 AM »
Zero-sum fallacy.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 02:19:51 AM »
when elected representatives make tax laws or decide how to spend money without consulting the people they represent, they aint representing. They replace a republic with an elected aristocracy. Part of what causes our problems. Looking at government as one piece taking away money from another piece is sideways thinking. Collecting taxes first then deciding afterwards how to spend the money,is backwards thinking. The American people are supposed to know that every law on the books requires a certain amount of money to enforce it correctly. The government should be telling the people how much a particular law costs, then if they don't like the price they should be trying to get rid of that law. If they think the benefit of the law is worth the price then they should expect to have to pay the tax associated.

There would be a whole lot less BS if the representatives were actually representin instead of makin up their own storyline
not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2017, 03:07:53 AM »
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.

btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 03:11:26 AM »
When Congressmen are elected from gerrymandered districts, there is not much choice of party.  The primaries are everything.  And when the gerrymandered district primaries where 10% of the voters vote are a contest of who can move farthest to the Right or Left that does not represent the general voters. 

General voter representation will only be effective when voting is made easiest for all, when voting places are convenient for all, and when voting intimidation is ended.  And when BIG MONEY is forced out of campaigns.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Xerographica (OP)

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2017, 04:32:56 AM »
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.

btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
A decade ago I started an online community/gallery for artists.  It had around 2000 artists.  There was always the big issue of deciding whose artwork to put on the homepage.  Of course every artist wanted their artwork to be on the homepage because it received by far the most traffic.  I think we elected members to decide whose art to put on the homepage.  Eventually the site was hit with a pretty big SQL injection attack and it was no longer worth it for me to continue running and maintaining the site.  I don't even want to think about how much money I lost in that endeavor.   

Honestly though I'd like to try again.  I love art.  But this time, the artwork for the homepage would be chosen by crowdfunding.  Members would pay a reasonable monthly fee of $1 dollar.  But they could choose which artwork they spent their fees on.  With this system, the most valuable artwork would be displayed on the homepage.  Visitors could filter the homepage to see the most valuable art that had been submitted in the past week, month, year or all time.

Artists would be more than welcome to donate money to the website to help increase the value of their art or other people's art.  Their favorite art would get more exposure and the website would get more funding to keep the site running and maintained. 

From my perspective, it would be a lot better than Patreon.  Patreon is based on the premise that you don't value every artist equally... but you do value an artist's work equally.  Nobody values any artist's work equally.  So Patreon prevents supporters from providing their favorite artists with more specific monetary feedback on their work. 

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2017, 04:39:45 AM »
On Twitter I saw this tweet with this pic...

(Image removed from quote.)


There's no such thing as a free lunch.  The massive amount of resources needed to build a giant wall aren't going to magically appear out of thin air.  They are going to be taken from other endeavors.  However, this is just as true for the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) as it is for a giant wall.  Here's how I illustrated this...

(Image removed from quote.)


If you genuinely appreciate that every endeavor is going to take resources away from other endeavors... then clearly the goal should be to take resources away from the least valuable endeavors.  This is Quiggin's Implied Rule of Economics (QIRE).

Imagine that Batman is at home twiddling his thumbs.  In this case, there would be absolutely no problem with having him rescue a cat from a tree.  Batman would be put to a more valuable use.  But what if Batman isn't at home twiddling his thumbs?  What if he is actually trying to save Gotham from imminent destruction?  Then it would be a terrible idea for him to stop what he's doing in order to rescue a cat from a tree.  The opportunity cost would be way too high. 

So the most important question is... how do we determine the actual value of an endeavor? 

Market = Everybody decides for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable
Not-market = Everybody does not decide for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable

How many places are missing a market?  The public sector is missing a market.  Taxpayers can't decide for themselves, with their own taxes, which trade-offs are acceptable. 

Netflix is also missing a market.  Subscribers can't decide for themselves, with their own fees, which trade-offs are acceptable.  The NY Times is also missing a market.  So is this forum.

There's a multitude of places that are missing markets.  Therefore...

A. Markets aren't the best way to determine the value of endeavors?
B. In some cases it's not necessary to know the value of endeavors? 
C. People don't understand the benefit of using markets to determine the value of endeavors?
I think I understand what you're saying, Brother, just don't go all hardcore libertarian on us, like JH.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2017, 04:50:47 AM »
When Congressmen are elected from gerrymandered districts, there is not much choice of party.  The primaries are everything.  And when the gerrymandered district primaries where 10% of the voters vote are a contest of who can move farthest to the Right or Left that does not represent the general voters. 

General voter representation will only be effective when voting is made easiest for all, when voting places are convenient for all, and when voting intimidation is ended.  And when BIG MONEY is forced out of campaigns.
As someone who's nearby(20 minute walk, in a poor area of town) polling place was closed, just prior to the last election, I can agree with this, from experience.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Cavebear

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2017, 05:06:19 AM »
As someone who's nearby(20 minute walk, in a poor area of town) polling place was closed, just prior to the last election, I can agree with this, from experience.

That's what needs to be stopped!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2017, 05:34:40 AM »
Im confused those pictures of "art" are not really worth a community garden or 100 computer or 2000 meals. Probaly .50 to 5 bucks at best and if salary orientd 10 dollars thats it. Third cost 2 cents because its shit.

Also free lunch does exist because i ate plenty.

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2017, 05:43:52 AM »
As someone who's nearby(20 minute walk, in a poor area of town) polling place was closed, just prior to the last election, I can agree with this, from experience.
That's what needs to be stopped!

Over here we don't have freedom to vote, but a duty to vote. If you don't you risk serious fines.
Despite none of our parties being what I wholeheartedly support, I've never minded being forced to vote.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:27:39 AM by Mr.Obvious »
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 07:18:45 AM »
Zero-sum fallacy.

Accounting fallacy ... free cell phones, free health care, free everything ... for China ... USA works for China.
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Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2017, 07:19:46 AM »
When Congressmen are elected from gerrymandered districts, there is not much choice of party.  The primaries are everything.  And when the gerrymandered district primaries where 10% of the voters vote are a contest of who can move farthest to the Right or Left that does not represent the general voters. 

General voter representation will only be effective when voting is made easiest for all, when voting places are convenient for all, and when voting intimidation is ended.  And when BIG MONEY is forced out of campaigns.

I am sure you can manage that, Vladimir Ilich.  Death to the Aristocracy ... and the Kulaks too (sarc).  Please put is on the agenda of the next Central Committee meeting, Comrade ;-)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 07:29:15 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2017, 07:21:36 AM »
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.

btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.

You can decorate the cattle cars with hip graffiti, on the way out of town ;-( (sarc)  The D and R party ... want revolution.  Ever see Dr Zhivago?
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