Author Topic: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?  (Read 1406 times)

Online Sorginak

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2017, 02:48:42 PM »
The only normal that matters in life is the setting on a dryer. 

Offline Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2017, 07:11:46 PM »
The only normal that matters in life is the setting on a dryer.

I have hope for you ... you have your head screwed on.  Forget theology and ideology ... waste of time.  Get that laundry done.
שלום

Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2017, 09:31:02 PM »
First of all, evolution is neither linear nor cyclical:  it goes in myriad "directions" based on natural selection/adaption in the material world.  Nature creates, adapts impartially, and, through entropy, which is the overriding force, dis-integrates(de-creates).  You could say that a simlilar set or collection of molecules and elements in our particular natural world "recycles" to form new "creations", but those are just the building blocks and said "creations" are not cyclical or linear:  they merely adapt to the particular contextual environment at any given time in order to survive and reproduce, neither of which is guaranteed long term.

Recorded human history, for one, is never all inclusive and actual human history also proceeds in myriad non linear, non cyclical "directions" also based on adaptation to the resources of the material world.  This adaptation to the material world and mode of life sustaining production based on material resources combines with arbitrarily decided resultant human relationships and therefore forms the basis of human "historical movement" over any particular phase of time.  To the extent that this historical, material movement, or "economic system" is able to reproduce and sustain itself gives the illusion of linear OR cyclical motion, but is, in fact, arbitrary and in no way necessarily permanent.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 09:34:52 PM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline Cavebear

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2017, 03:32:15 AM »
I disagree.

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Atheist populations have steadily increased from virtually nothing to a frustratingly difficult to determine portion of the large but nebulous "non-religious" category - the #3 spot in the world behind Christians and Muslims.  It might be hard to picture people giving up religion, but that's evidently what's going on in many parts of the world, particularly in Western countries, and the data bears that out.

Here's what's been going on in the USA:

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Of course, the USA is only around 5% of the world population, so don't cheer just yet.  According to Pew Research Center, the Unaffiliated category (which contains atheists, agnostics, non-religious, etc) is going to decline as a percentage of the world population by 2050.  Unaffiliated numbers will still be on the in the West, but not nearly as a fast as religious, particularly Muslim, populations in developing countries.  So any religious decline in the West is going to be more than offset by population booms in heavily religious developing countries.

The Gods may not be winning, but they're putting up a hell of a fight.  But as countries gain achieve better standards of living and access to education, and more countries experience demographic transition (high birth rates and high death rates --> low birth rates and low death rates), irreligion might just win out over religion, albeit at least a couple centuries from now.

Outstanding great info Hydra!  The numbers keep increasing toward atheist.  I'm not surprised.  One habit I think we humans have is tending toward factual information and a rational outlook.  The scientific approach causes that.  It just answers more questions than revelatory theisms.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2017, 12:20:09 AM »
MyelinSheath

I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.

Excellent topic.

I think it depends on the state of evidence for or against theism. There have been 100's of beliefs folks have abandoned due to very strong evidence against such beliefs. No one believes in the sun god or the god of earthquakes or the rain god but at one time people did and were committed to such beliefs. People have respect for science and scientific facts. I don't know of anyone who is declaring the non-existence of God is a scientific fact. There are some naturalistic theories of how the universe came into existence but they are highly theoretical. The preponderance of evidence is the universe came into existence 13.5 billion years ago from a singularity. A phenomenon in which the laws of physics we are familiar with don't exist. I know most atheists vehemently deny there is any single fact which supports theism but that doesn't mean impartial people won't view such facts as evidence in favor of theism.

In regards to charts and surveys I think a grain of salt is needed. If I was asked if I'm religious I'd say no...but I do believe we owe our existence to a Creator known as God. Some who respond I'm an atheist may actually be a 'weak' atheist who doesn't deny God exists just doesn't subscribe to it. In my opinion they could just as well be weak theists.

There are things that could happen that would change my mind. If find life of a totally different nature from earth. If we discover this really is one of many universes or if we can actually duplicate how life began. I don't mean by using intelligence and design, that would be the theistic method.

 
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Cavebear

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2017, 12:48:42 AM »
MyelinSheath

I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.

In regards to charts and surveys I think a grain of salt is needed. If I was asked if I'm religious I'd say no...but I do believe we owe our existence to a Creator known as God. Some who respond I'm an atheist may actually be a 'weak' atheist who doesn't deny God exists just doesn't subscribe to it. In my opinion they could just as well be weak theists.

I'm sorry, but if you think there was a creator deity of the universe, then you aren't really an "atheist".  You are a theist.  You might not have an organized group of fellow-believers and a text, but it is a theism nonetheless.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2017, 01:33:11 AM »
I'm sorry, but if you think there was a creator deity of the universe, then you aren't really an "atheist".  You are a theist.  You might not have an organized group of fellow-believers and a text, but it is a theism nonetheless.

I'm not an atheist. I am a theist. I'm not religious. I don't attend a church of theism though I might if there was one...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2017, 08:24:41 AM »
I'm not an atheist. I am a theist. I'm not religious. I don't attend a church of theism though I might if there was one...

Have you considered Unitarian Universalism?  Some congregations are open to Abrahamics, others are more Eastern in orientation ;-)
שלום

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2017, 01:40:10 AM »
Have you considered Unitarian Universalism?  Some congregations are open to Abrahamics, others are more Eastern in orientation ;-)
Or, you know, just atheism in the "I don't know/default position" sort of way. Much more reasonable than either of those two things. Let's not pick our answer yet. Let's wait until some evidence arises.

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2017, 03:13:58 AM »
Like vegetarianism, of which I am also, I don't expect it to be the 'norm' in my lifetime.


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Online Munch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2017, 01:40:20 PM »
There is always some form of religion that forms, and I predict another one will form again in the future, and like now only a handful of people who don't follow any kind of dogma will follow it.

The problem with the human condition is people are so often easily lead, anything can be a religion in one form or another, even political ideology.

Offline Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2017, 06:01:10 PM »
There is always some form of religion that forms, and I predict another one will form again in the future, and like now only a handful of people who don't follow any kind of dogma will follow it.

The problem with the human condition is people are so often easily lead, anything can be a religion in one form or another, even political ideology.

If we define religion as ... whatever is irrationally most important to one ... then there is always religion, even non-theist kinds.  Rationality however, is itself a shibboleth.  The only way to be free of religion in the most general sense, is to be free of enthusiasm, free of emotion.  Some people here might qualify as androids ;-)
שלום

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 07:32:57 PM »
If we define religion as ... whatever is irrationally most important to one ... then there is always religion, even non-theist kinds.  Rationality however, is itself a shibboleth.  The only way to be free of religion in the most general sense, is to be free of enthusiasm, free of emotion.  Some people here might qualify as androids ;-)
I see organized religion as a destroyer of enthusiasm, except for a very narrow band that is allowed by the hierarchy for their particular god.  The same for emotion--emotion directed toward a particular god, but nowhere else.  Being atheist does not make one lack enthusiasm; personally, I find it the opposite.  When I visit a church or study a particular religion or talk with a very religious person If find my energy become less and less.  My emotions less and less healthy. 

I don't see how rationality can be bad.  Rational people realize that emotions are a part of humanity and make room for it.  Rational people simply want to study or view life thru a reasonable (using thinking and critical thought), not wishful thinking or belief.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2017, 08:54:42 PM »
I see organized religion as a destroyer of enthusiasm, except for a very narrow band that is allowed by the hierarchy for their particular god.  The same for emotion--emotion directed toward a particular god, but nowhere else.  Being atheist does not make one lack enthusiasm; personally, I find it the opposite.  When I visit a church or study a particular religion or talk with a very religious person If find my energy become less and less.  My emotions less and less healthy. 

I don't see how rationality can be bad.  Rational people realize that emotions are a part of humanity and make room for it.  Rational people simply want to study or view life thru a reasonable (using thinking and critical thought), not wishful thinking or belief.

Very true. At least I know Christianity is that way. Few Christians are content with applying their personal "values" to their own lives, but they have to force it onto everyone else too. So not only do you have to limit yourself to what things your imaginary god approves of, but you also have to deal with others telling you what their gods approve of. I remember one chastising me for liking the "Taken" movie because the main character killed people. Oh, yeah, because killing people was never directed by the God of the Bible. He especially never commanded the killing of people who did something he thought was evil, like say...kidnapping your daughter and making her into a sex slave. Nah. Clearly what the main character should have done with his talents was pray for God to save his daughter, and ask nicely for the kidnappers to release their new slave.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 09:32:53 PM by Blackleaf »
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2017, 11:01:39 PM »
I'm a WWI WWII Civil war buff which means I watch a lot of TV documentaries and read a few books on the subject. The most irrational...and yet arguably the bravest acts were men relentlessly marching into the line of fire. I don't know if under that circumstance I'd mentally collapse or just find myself unable to make my limbs continue to march forward. The securing of Iwo Jima was as savage fighting as could be imagined yet the persevered for nearly a month to secure that five mile island.   
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein