Author Topic: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?  (Read 1398 times)

Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2017, 10:34:46 AM »
Eh, there are quite a few, depending on how you ask.  Adding non-religious and atheist together to clear that 50% bar seems like a bit of a cheat, though.  There's a pretty noticeable clustering in Europe and Asia.

(But just between you and me, I dunno if I'd count countries with state atheism.  All it takes is a big political shakeup and bam, back to the voodoo that they do so well.  China in particular looks like it's in the midst of a religious revival)
There are not, nor has there ever been, any, "Atheist States".  That is, Atheism legislated and enforced by a State.  That is a lie.   A variety of religions have always been practiced in China, or the DPRK, or the former USSR(Russian Orthodox Christianity in particular), Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 10:56:17 AM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 10:43:52 AM »
The American Taliban does have their own terrorist state, they call it, "Al-Abama"...

Are you sure you and Baruch aren't related?
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2017, 10:50:13 AM »
I think the younger generations are less and less functionally religious or believers.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but that's my take, anyway.  I suppose it could all get rolled back if all those Christo-Fascists--"American Taliban"--get their way, but that will be eventually be overcome by rationality, science and cooperation.  If nothing else, Nature will force the issue as it is already doing.

Yes. That's another thing that needs to be taken into account. Even the religious seem to be more secular in nature now. They don't go to church as much, they reject socially unacceptable teachings that have long been Christian standard (such as homosexuality being a sin), they're more Liberal when it comes to political issues. Basically, the young religious often believe that God is the lovable guy, completely opposite to how the Bible portrays him. They're functionally secular.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2017, 10:57:28 AM »
Yes. That's another thing that needs to be taken into account. Even the religious seem to be more secular in nature now. They don't go to church as much, they reject socially unacceptable teachings that have long been Christian standard (such as homosexuality being a sin), they're more Liberal when it comes to political issues. Basically, the young religious often believe that God is the lovable guy, completely opposite to how the Bible portrays him. They're functionally secular.
Agreed.  I think that is probably true among the younger Muslim generations too:  functionally atheist.  Humans are basically materialists, is what it comes down to, since we have to feed our bellies and stay warm everyday.  "God" doesn't help at all with any of that.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 11:03:04 AM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2017, 10:58:12 AM »
Are you sure you and Baruch aren't related?
No, he thinks Plato invented Marxism.
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2017, 11:55:34 AM »
It is possible and even likely as I see it.  But it will take a very long time.  I see us (humans) moving toward that and away from the fantasy of religion.  But as I said--it will take a very long time.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2017, 12:20:49 PM »
Here's the current starting point in the good ol' UFSA:




Sooooooo....
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2017, 12:52:26 PM »
I think the younger generations are less and less functionally religious or believers.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but that's my take, anyway.  I suppose it could all get rolled back if all those Christo-Fascists--"American Taliban"--get their way, but that will be eventually be overcome by rationality, science and cooperation.  If nothing else, Nature will force the issue as it is already doing.

I don't know. I'm not willing to make that statement. When I was growing up, I had the same idea. But it turns out I was just alike to many of my friends.
In my job these days however, I find that lots of people, even the younger ones, claim to be religious. Relatively lots of strict christians and muslims in the impoverished, low-educated and opportunity-deprived layers of society, to my experience. And I don't think religion and poverty (of opportunity) are unrelated.
Which begs the question; how this is growing on a global scale? Say half of Belgium, a relatively rich country, becomes atheist. That's still only about 5.5 milion people. You can't call that a dent in the world population, not with the best of arguments. The Western World is only a relatively small part of the entire world. And it's the richer layer, if we extend my national example. How's the rest of the world fairing? India? Africa? South America? With the encreasing gap between the rich and the poor globally (as well as in our own country), and the poor education on global level, I don't think we'll see atheism as the norm world-wide for quite some time. At best.
Then again, that's my experience. I too may be wrong here.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Online Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2017, 01:04:06 PM »
No, he thinks Plato invented Marxism.

Plato invented modern totalitarianism ... ever read The Republic?  Of course he put his ideas in Socrates mouth.  Marxism is just a 19th century form of Platonism.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:12:47 PM by Baruch »
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Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2017, 01:04:55 PM »
I don't know. I'm not willing to make that statement. When I was growing up, I had the same idea. But it turns out I was just alike to many of my friends.
In my job these days however, I find that lots of people, even the younger ones, claim to be religious. Relatively lots of strict christians and muslims in the impoverished, low-educated and opportunity-deprived layers of society, to my experience. And I don't think religion and poverty (of opportunity) are unrelated.
Which begs the question; how this is growing on a global scale? Say half of Belgium, a relatively rich country, becomes atheist. That's still only about 5.5 milion people. You can't call that a dent in the world population, not with the best of arguments. The Western World is only a relatively small part of the entire world. And it's the richer layer, if we extend my national example. How's the rest of the world fairing? India? Africa? South America? With the encreasing gap between the rich and the poor globally (as well as in our own country), and the poor education on global level, I don't think we'll see atheism as the norm world-wide for quite some time. At best.
Then again, that's my experience. I too may be wrong here.
All good points.  Well, the 3rd World and the 1st World are materially interrelated, obviously, as I have discussed elsewhere.

Quote
Religion is the Opium(pain killer) of the (poor)People.   Marx
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Online Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2017, 01:06:55 PM »
I'd even say all of what people do is culture.

However I think you and I have a different look on what culture entails. To say it can fail is to say it can succeed. I don't think they can. I don't think they try. Cultures just are. And one day, cultures just are no more. Failure and succes seem such loaded words, not applicable here, I think.

Europe ... ban word "success".  Now no need to worry about being a failure.  Tell it to all the Europeans who killed other Europeans, 1914-1945.  Suicidal maniacs do not success make.  And now Germany wants to go to war with Russia again ... simply brilliant!
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Online Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2017, 01:09:28 PM »
It is possible and even likely as I see it.  But it will take a very long time.  I see us (humans) moving toward that and away from the fantasy of religion.  But as I said--it will take a very long time.

Once we evolve into cyborgs, Seri will be your Operating System ... the ultimate leather bitch!
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Online Baruch

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2017, 01:12:10 PM »
I don't know. I'm not willing to make that statement. When I was growing up, I had the same idea. But it turns out I was just alike to many of my friends.
In my job these days however, I find that lots of people, even the younger ones, claim to be religious. Relatively lots of strict christians and muslims in the impoverished, low-educated and opportunity-deprived layers of society, to my experience. And I don't think religion and poverty (of opportunity) are unrelated.
Which begs the question; how this is growing on a global scale? Say half of Belgium, a relatively rich country, becomes atheist. That's still only about 5.5 milion people. You can't call that a dent in the world population, not with the best of arguments. The Western World is only a relatively small part of the entire world. And it's the richer layer, if we extend my national example. How's the rest of the world fairing? India? Africa? South America? With the encreasing gap between the rich and the poor globally (as well as in our own country), and the poor education on global level, I don't think we'll see atheism as the norm world-wide for quite some time. At best.
Then again, that's my experience. I too may be wrong here.

History is more cyclical than that.  It isn't some linear progression to a Capitalist or Communist utopia.  There is no utopia (the clue in in the name).  I have seen quite a few cultural swings in the US in 60 years, and my history (propaganda) tells me it has been going on a long time.  Based on that, since Americans aren't a different species, I think it applies everywhere.  Some aspects of Europe, are strictly post WWII or post Cold War ... in time that will fade, and you will be back to killing each other again.
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Offline etienne

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2017, 01:18:52 PM »
Plato invented modern totalitarianism, ever read The Republic.  Of course he put his ideas in Socrates mouth.  Marxism is just a 19th century form of Platonism.
Absolutely false, again.   I already thoroughly debunked this with evidence...and reason.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:23:13 PM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline Shiranu

Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2017, 02:34:52 PM »
No, I don't think so... at least not for a very, very long time. But I do think what will become the norm is that people will practice extremely secular-religion, as we see happening now, where they take the bits that agree with their culture's secular morality and ignore the bits that don't, which at the end of the day is what is really important. Who cares what people believe? What matters is what people do, and the trend is that people are beginning to do that which is right more than that which is wrong.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes