Author Topic: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism  (Read 5658 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2017, 02:36:10 PM »
"And what's wrong with Dutch, by the way? (I sure as shit ain't gonna learn Chinese.) :p"

你不能从中文菜单订购?
Nǐ bùnéng cóng zhōngwén càidān dìnggòu?

שלום

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2017, 02:42:13 PM »
What do you think of your fellow socialists/communists who buy into the religion of social justice and identity politics? It's not just 'liberal' or 'progressive' capitalists who buy into this. Take a look at the socialism or communism subreddits, for example.

What do you think should happen to people who don't want socialism/communism during a communist revolution? Or what about after the revolution is complete?

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2017, 03:57:22 PM »
Further:  "Democratic Socialism" is NOT Socialism

Jason Unruhe--1st Worldism v 3rd Worldism, Reformism v Revolution





« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 04:22:28 PM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2017, 04:29:20 PM »
A skeptic of religion, isn't necessarily a skeptic of anything else, particularly if their cultural echo chamber is involved ;-)
  That's mostly true, especially in 1st World countries.  As Upton Sinclair said:

Quote
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary(mode of living) depends on his not understanding it.”
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2017, 04:35:05 PM »
"And what's wrong with Dutch, by the way? (I sure as shit ain't gonna learn Chinese.) :p"

你不能从中文菜单订购?
Nǐ bùnéng cóng zhōngwén càidān dìnggòu?
I don't read Chinese, I just look at the nice "pictures".  When I think "Dutch", I think Germanic capitalists, Deutsche Bank(Nazi) and such.  It's a bad habit of mine to do so.  Drumpf owes Deutsche Bank a 'yooge' amount of $, BTW.
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2017, 04:52:12 PM »
What do you think of your fellow socialists/communists who buy into the religion of social justice and identity politics? It's not just 'liberal' or 'progressive' capitalists who buy into this. Take a look at the socialism or communism subreddits, for example.

What do you think should happen to people who don't want socialism/communism during a communist revolution? Or what about after the revolution is complete?
Identity politics and SJW I view as subsets of socialistic thought:  that is, they are about creating more equality.  If the socialists are real socialists and doing this, I don't have a problem with it.  The big irony is when liberal/prog capitalists focus on that stuff and don't attack capitalism itself--because they benefit from capitalism(see Unruhe vids re Sanders).

During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options.  All of these things happen in any socialist revolution.  After the overthrow of the former power structure, the same options apply--it's an ongoing class struggle, no rev has ever been "complete".  So-Comm countries have always been under attack in one form or another by the capitalists/imperialists.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 04:54:45 PM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2017, 07:03:30 PM »
The countries where so-called "So-Comm" socioeconomic model has been applied, per your examples if I can infer properly, are not impressive. Given the choice between living in any Social Democratic Scandinavian country and Socialist Communist Cuba, I'd choose the former without a second thought.

"During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options."

Basically you are calling for the creation of a society in which everyone thinks the same (and if not they are killed, jailed, or exiled) where everyone's common denominator is that they're poor while the tyrant who rules the country and the goons protecting him usurp the wealth of the land, distributing just enough to the peasants so they do not dispose of him.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2017, 07:37:56 PM »
Pure communism tends to have a couple of major flaws: Social loafing and the tragedy of the commons.

The more socialistic you get, the more of a problem this becomes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_loafing

This is a good example of the lack of respect for public property. More socialist ways of thinking discourage private property.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tragedy-of-the-commons.asp

Personally, I consider communists and libertarians two sides of the same coin. Both sound great in theory, but in practice don't work well. The libertarians assume humans will usually act in a rational, self interested way. In truth, humans tend to be quite irrational, greedy, and exploitative of one another. Communists have the opposite problem: They underestimate the evolutionary and social drive of personal ambition, which tends to lead to stagnation, along with economic and social decline. The truth is, these are two extremes and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 07:39:32 PM by _Xenu_ »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2017, 07:44:56 PM »
The countries where so-called "So-Comm" socioeconomic model has been applied, per your examples if I can infer properly, are not impressive. Given the choice between living in any Social Democratic Scandinavian country and Socialist Communist Cuba, I'd choose the former without a second thought.

"During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options."

Basically you are calling for the creation of a society in which everyone thinks the same (and if not they are killed, jailed, or exiled) where everyone's common denominator is that they're poor while the tyrant who rules the country and the goons protecting him usurp the wealth of the land, distributing just enough to the peasants so they do not dispose of him.

We see this more recently in Venezuela.  Opportunists come from both sides of the political spectrum.  I distrust idealists of the Right or the Left, if they are true believers, they have their heads up their own ass, like the famous photoshop picture.  Inevitably these idealists are puritans, looking to purge society of impurities.  This is why I prefer criminogenic societies, like Capitalism.  The trick is ... making crime pay for more people, not less.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2017, 07:47:27 PM »
I don't read Chinese, I just look at the nice "pictures".  When I think "Dutch", I think Germanic capitalists, Deutsche Bank(Nazi) and such.  It's a bad habit of mine to do so.  Drumpf owes Deutsche Bank a 'yooge' amount of $, BTW.

That was for Mr Obvious ... but I suggest y'all learn more Chinese culture, because if you are young enough, you will live to wear Mao jackets and get around on bicycles ;-)  The cannibals have been lest loose in the West and the (Warren) buffet won't last much longer.
שלום

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2017, 08:06:24 PM »
We see this more recently in Venezuela.  Opportunists come from both sides of the political spectrum.  I distrust idealists of the Right or the Left, if they are true believers, they have their heads up their own ass, like the famous photoshop picture.  Inevitably these idealists are puritans, looking to purge society of impurities.  This is why I prefer criminogenic societies, like Capitalism.  The trick is ... making crime pay for more people, not less.

I agree and distrust idealists also -- the best socioeconomic model is a mixture of both capitalism and socialism. How far the scale is tipped in favor of one side or the other has to depend on the political and economic situation of the nation in question. Economically-stable developed countries should not have the same socioeconomic model as underdeveloped or developing countries.

You can't build a capitalist haven in a So-Comm society as described by OP, of which contemporary China is certainly not an example. But you can build a socialist haven, a collective commune based on cooperation, inside a capitalist state, even in the United States. The only problem is that you will need to make money to pay property tax, but then again you can register your 'communal' organization as a church and not pay any property or income tax :P.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2017, 08:14:47 PM »
The countries where so-called "So-Comm" socioeconomic model has been applied, per your examples if I can infer properly, are not impressive. Given the choice between living in any Social Democratic Scandinavian country and Socialist Communist Cuba, I'd choose the former without a second thought.

"During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options."

Basically you are calling for the creation of a society in which everyone thinks the same (and if not they are killed, jailed, or exiled) where everyone's common denominator is that they're poor while the tyrant who rules the country and the goons protecting him usurp the wealth of the land, distributing just enough to the peasants so they do not dispose of him.
In order:

1)
Quote
The United States embargo against Cuba (in Cuba called el bloqueo, "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed by the United States on Cuba. ... On February 7, 1962 the embargo was extended to include almost all imports.
  AS to your preference for Scandanavian countries, I file that reply under "1st Worldist attitude" and kindly refer you to the Unruhe vids on that subject above.

2)  In matters of socioeconomics, if a group gets together to overthrow the socialist order, yes, they will be met with the options.  Just as in the USA everyone is required to obey the rules of capitalism and not threaten it's existence.  AS to other things, anyone can think anything in a so-comm society.

3)Everyone prospers under socialism ands no one is "owned" like in capitalism, if it is done correctly, but as I said, socialism is always under attack by the capitalists--US embargos are a bitch!  I refer you to the 1st 4 vids of this thread.  What you are describing is capitalism, where the means of production/land are owned by the bourgeois class--no poverty, right?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 08:22:46 PM by etienne »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2017, 08:18:01 PM »
That was for Mr Obvious ... but I suggest y'all learn more Chinese culture, because if you are young enough, you will live to wear Mao jackets and get around on bicycles ;-)  The cannibals have been lest loose in the West and the (Warren) buffet won't last much longer.
My sis in law in from Shanghai.  I studied acupuncture for a time, and Chinese herbs.   I know 2 Chinese words:  "Tsing Tao".  Warren Buffet is from my home town and I hate him with a passion.
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2017, 08:19:39 PM »
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...

Offline etienne (OP)

Re: Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2017, 08:25:17 PM »
We see this more recently in Venezuela.  Opportunists come from both sides of the political spectrum.  I distrust idealists of the Right or the Left, if they are true believers, they have their heads up their own ass, like the famous photoshop picture.  Inevitably these idealists are puritans, looking to purge society of impurities.  This is why I prefer criminogenic societies, like CapitalismThe trick is ... making crime pay for more people, not less.
Bolded:  logical fallacy, not possible.  Please study "class warfare" under capitalism.
The Revolution does not fall like an apple when it is ripe:  you have to MAKE it fall...