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Realistic moral dilema...

Started by Drummer Guy, February 17, 2013, 02:21:17 AM

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Drummer Guy

Let's say you have volunteered to judge at a public school science fair.  You are having fun seeing how all these kids are learning about science as they are all 8-10 years old.

You come across the work of a student who made a presentation on Noah's ark.  Now, you recognize that this kid is just as eager to learn as every other kid, and they are genuine and somewhat innocent on the actual science that goes on in the world.  In fact, as you view their board you recognize a lot of arguments and diagrams that come straight from Answers in Genesis and the like.  

Since I don't have an actual example of such a presentation, you're free to respond however you assume it would be setup.

How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?

the_antithesis

Quote from: "Drummer Guy"Let's say you have volunteered to judge at a public school science fair.

Wait. How drunk am I?
QuoteYou are having fun seeing how all these kids are learning about science as they are all 8-10 years old.

I do love potatoes.

QuoteYou come across the work of a student who made a presentation on Noah's ark.  Now, you recognize that this kid is just as eager to learn as every other kid, and they are genuine and somewhat innocent on the actual science that goes on in the world.  In fact, as you view their board you recognize a lot of arguments and diagrams that come straight from Answers in Genesis and the like.  

Since I don't have an actual example of such a presentation, you're free to respond however you assume it would be setup.

How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?

Answers in genesis is not a reputable science source. So he fails.

Crush his spirit? What should I do? Give him a passing grade so I can be yet another adult that lied to him when he learns the truth? Bad enough his parents lie to him.

Besides, the way you describe it, the kid plagiarized that stuff from answers in genesis. So he gets to spend the night in jail.

Hydra009

Quote from: "Drummer Guy"How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
I'd judge it truthfully and wouldn't spare any feelings.  A little tough love never hurt anyone.  Unless by "tough love", you mean "toxic substance".  And then, yeah, it's probably going to hurt.

Plu

I'd give him a second assignment. Pick one of his arguments, tell him it's wrong, and then tell him to go find out why. And to keep looking until he figures out why it's wrong.

If he has the scientist spirit, he'll look long enough to find out. If he doesn't find it, he gets a fail and you can explain the answer to him.

Basically; the same way many incorrect school assignments can be resolved. Let the student figure out what he did wrong. Sticks much better that way.

aitm

I bet all the balls I have left that the idea of the ark was his parents. The kid probably knows full well its bs but ole Mom,,(yeah probably Mom) got him to present the ark so other kids could be exposed to the "other truth". Be nice and tell the little boy that this was a science experiment and his example should at least show how a ship that big could float first of all and second of all how seriously undersized it was for all the animals it was rumored to carry.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Nonsensei

This isn't a moral dilemma. Kids learn through failure all the time. This child needs to know his religion is not a substitute for science. Doing your part to ensure he gets that message will help ensure he doesn't have trouble later in life.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

WitchSabrina

Well I can see why he used the words "moral dilema"  - because he's taking about a child and not too many people want to break the hearts of children even IF the world is a cruel place and yes kids do learn through failure.  
Hmm.... what would I do?  I would probably explain to the child that Noah's ark is based on the bible and what I'd rather see from him is a Science project and remind him of a few things from class as examples.  Depending on time - the kid could do another project science related.

Now - a second issue may rise from this - that might be hearing from the parents all in an uproar for denying Noah's ark for a science project.  That's a separate issue and hopefully that conversation could be had away from the child.

Point being - educators - have a fine line to walk when it comes to belief.  If we could alter what parents taught at home and save children from delusion all Atheists would do so.  But until someone is 18 they are being raised and influenced by their parents - good parents and bad parents.  As much as we'd like to get kids away from religious delusionists it cannot happen. How many times have we discussed here how a person's childhood has affected them as adults?  So there it is.

Giving the child the chance to do an actual "science" project, explaining the Noah's Ark isn't really science and prepare for fallout from the parents is all you can do IMHO.  Personally, since it's a child, I'd be gentle about it and maybe even give some small credit for short time to complete another project.
That or

(this just in)
Call the parents.  Explain to them via phone that Noah's Ark isn't science.  Tell them Jr needs to throw together another science project.   If they refuse - give the kid a failing grade.  If he turns in another project - grade that one accordingly.

When the kid is unhappy with the grade - explain THEN that Noah's Ark isn't science and it's too bad his time was short for doing another project in time for grading.

I'd go with #2

Let the parents tell their OWN kid that Noah's Ark isn't science.

still - prepare for some fallout.  Keep your sentences short, sweet and don't get wrapped up in religiotard conversation - with the kid OR the parents.
I am currently experiencing life at several WTFs per hour.

Johan

Quote from: "Drummer Guy"How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
Diplomacy. A fail is a fail, but you don't have to be an asshole about it. Allowing a kid to believe their work is up to par when it is actually way below par is far more of a moral shortcoming IMHO than diplomatically telling the kid that the story of Noah's Arc is a poor subject for a science fair presentation as it is almost completely lacking of any real science.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

WitchSabrina

Quote from: "Johan"
Quote from: "Drummer Guy"How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
Diplomacy. A fail is a fail, but you don't have to be an asshole about it. Allowing a kid to believe their work is up to par when it is actually way below par is far more of a moral shortcoming IMHO than diplomatically telling the kid that the story of Noah's Arc is a poor subject for a science fair presentation as it is almost completely lacking of any real science.

That's a good point.
Well said you.
I am currently experiencing life at several WTFs per hour.

mykcob4

Quote from: "Drummer Guy"Let's say you have volunteered to judge at a public school science fair.  You are having fun seeing how all these kids are learning about science as they are all 8-10 years old.

You come across the work of a student who made a presentation on Noah's ark.  Now, you recognize that this kid is just as eager to learn as every other kid, and they are genuine and somewhat innocent on the actual science that goes on in the world.  In fact, as you view their board you recognize a lot of arguments and diagrams that come straight from Answers in Genesis and the like.  

Since I don't have an actual example of such a presentation, you're free to respond however you assume it would be setup.

How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
1) No science fair would allow a biblical or mythological project (it's not scientific)!
2) The sponsor of the child would actually be responsible so the kid can get a grade for effort, but the project would be disqualified because it isn't scientific.
3) I would take painstaking efforts to TEACH the child the difference between science and fantasy.
4) I would remove the project because it doesn't belong in a "science fair"!
5) I would find out who put this kid up to such nonsense and make sure that they never again are allowed around children!

WitchSabrina

Quote from: "mykcob4"
Quote from: "Drummer Guy"Let's say you have volunteered to judge at a public school science fair.  You are having fun seeing how all these kids are learning about science as they are all 8-10 years old.

You come across the work of a student who made a presentation on Noah's ark.  Now, you recognize that this kid is just as eager to learn as every other kid, and they are genuine and somewhat innocent on the actual science that goes on in the world.  In fact, as you view their board you recognize a lot of arguments and diagrams that come straight from Answers in Genesis and the like.  

Since I don't have an actual example of such a presentation, you're free to respond however you assume it would be setup.

How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
1) No science fair would allow a biblical or mythological project (it's not scientific)!
2) The sponsor of the child would actually be responsible so the kid can get a grade for effort, but the project would be disqualified because it isn't scientific.
3) I would take painstaking efforts to TEACH the child the difference between science and fantasy.
4) I would remove the project because it doesn't belong in a "science fair"!
5) I would find out who put this kid up to such nonsense and make sure that they never again are allowed around children!


You know that's not possible.   How many households are run by christian parents trying to raise their kids under the banner of christianity?  It's certainly not the kids' faults if their parents are delusional.  But they are Still the parents nevertheless and little can be done about that.    I don't think even rabid atheists would agree that we should go round-up all the children living in christian homes and being influenced by christian ways.
I am currently experiencing life at several WTFs per hour.

Aroura33

Quote from: "Johan"
Quote from: "Drummer Guy"How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
Diplomacy. A fail is a fail, but you don't have to be an asshole about it. Allowing a kid to believe their work is up to par when it is actually way below par is far more of a moral shortcoming IMHO than diplomatically telling the kid that the story of Noah's Arc is a poor subject for a science fair presentation as it is almost completely lacking of any real science.
This.  I would tell him that religion does not belong in a science presentation, and give him a chance to redo it.  No need to be a cruel or break their heart and crush their soul, but I couldn't let it pass.  Kids are perfectly capable of learning from mistakes and coming out stronger for it, without it being traumatizing or anything.

This isn't exactly the same, but I used to be a volunteer art teacher (now I'm a volunteer teachers aid, lol).  I once asked a class of 2nd through 5th graders to draw a pinecone (still life).  One kid drew a mutant turtle.  It was a good mutant turtle, and I praised his drawing skill for the turtle, but still made him go back and do the pinecone as well.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.  LLAP"
Leonard Nimoy

mykcob4

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"
Quote from: "mykcob4"
Quote from: "Drummer Guy"Let's say you have volunteered to judge at a public school science fair.  You are having fun seeing how all these kids are learning about science as they are all 8-10 years old.

You come across the work of a student who made a presentation on Noah's ark.  Now, you recognize that this kid is just as eager to learn as every other kid, and they are genuine and somewhat innocent on the actual science that goes on in the world.  In fact, as you view their board you recognize a lot of arguments and diagrams that come straight from Answers in Genesis and the like.  

Since I don't have an actual example of such a presentation, you're free to respond however you assume it would be setup.

How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?
1) No science fair would allow a biblical or mythological project (it's not scientific)!
2) The sponsor of the child would actually be responsible so the kid can get a grade for effort, but the project would be disqualified because it isn't scientific.
3) I would take painstaking efforts to TEACH the child the difference between science and fantasy.
4) I would remove the project because it doesn't belong in a "science fair"!
5) I would find out who put this kid up to such nonsense and make sure that they never again are allowed around children!


You know that's not possible.   How many households are run by christian parents trying to raise their kids under the banner of christianity?  It's certainly not the kids' faults if their parents are delusional.  But they are Still the parents nevertheless and little can be done about that.    I don't think even rabid atheists would agree that we should go round-up all the children living in christian homes and being influenced by christian ways.
Okay maybe it isn't possible, but still people that influence an innocent kid like that are nothing more than child molesters. The mind is more vunerable than the body, Hitler proved that as fact.

GodvReligion

Quote from: "Drummer Guy"You come across the work of a student who made a presentation on Noah's ark.  Now, you recognize that this kid is just as eager to learn as every other kid, and they are genuine and somewhat innocent on the actual science that goes on in the world.  In fact, as you view their board you recognize a lot of arguments and diagrams that come straight from Answers in Genesis and the like.  

How do you judge their presentation without crushing their spirit?

Is the entirty of his work out of the book of Genesis, or is he using it to support scientific testing that the story could be true?  As long as the testing is scientifically sound than it's all good.  He either needs to learn a thing or two, or he is a scietific prodigy that somehow caught what scientist have missed for hundreds of years.