Author Topic: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump  (Read 2203 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 06:28:08 AM »
It is also about 90% improbable that we can have affordable health care while insurance companies are given a seat at the table when fixing the health care laws.
The reason people so widely support universal healthcare is because of insurance company shenanigans to begin with.  I think Obama didn't want to be the heavy and step on corporate toes, which would not be fun for the president.  His solution was to bring the problem into the solution.  But you just can't get rid of the problem by making the problem the solution. 

Obama wanted healthcare to be a part of his legacy, but he wanted it on his resume so bad that he was ready to trick Americans into an inferior product, something that was not at all remotely like the universal health care that the country was expecting.  People opened their arms to Obama when he showed interest in addressing the problem.  The country had finally reached a critical mass that would embrace European style universal coverage, and the debates in Washington, along with the payoffs from insurance companies to key members of congress, began to take place.  Yeah, the Republicans opposed Obama and healthcare and the Democrats supported it (at least when in front of TV crews).

And when the future for Average Americans started looking brighter and the country was finally chanting, "Healthcare!  Healthcare", the Democrats pulled a bait and switch, and instead of creating universal healthcare, passed a law forcing everyone to buy insurance from insurance companies (Remember insurance companies? They were the  companies that were consuming American paychecks, sometimes at a rate higher than a home mortgage).  I remember that turning point when people began to understand what was really coming to them.  Obama defended the Democrats new direction by claiming universal health care was only one small part of a health care bill.  He was in Montana at a town hall meeting with Montana Senator, Max Baucus (D), who had received something like 1.5 million dollars from the health care industry over the years.  He also chaired a vital committee that the bill would have to get through.

One small part of health care?  Well maybe, if an only IF universal coverage actually represented 5%, rather than 90% of what people thought they were getting.  In fact, it wasn't one small part, but Obama reinforced the impression of the insignificance of universal coverage by making the "itty bitty" sign between his thumb and forefinger. 

But universal coverage isn't "one small part."  It's basically the totality of the thing, not some insignificant "teeny weeny".  However, short term (the next 7 or 8 years), Obama received a personal benefit.  Health care!  At last!  Some people called it a baby step on the way to real universal coverage and hailed Obama as getting ball rolling, but it wasn't a baby step as much as a tactic to reinforce an already failed system.  It was a step backwards that actually undermines the concept of national healthcare, and will set healthcare back another 30 years and make it that much harder to pass the next time, when people (and politicians) remember the bitter taste left in their mouths from ACA and how poorly received a "healthcare" bill could be.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:39:40 AM by SGOS »

Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 07:12:21 AM »
Yeah, Obama had goals.  Trump has opposite goals.  You can't really hope for both sensibly. 

I AM hoping Trump GROWS into the job.  Some unlikely Presidents have (Truman comes to mind as does Teddy Roosevelt).  But I doubt that Trump is capable of much change.  Trump is a real WYSIWYG.

BTW, the week's Congressional inquiries and new stuff coming out on the news channels suggests Trump is involved directly or indirectly with Russian involvement.  I suspect he will be impeached, and for the 1st time in our history, for very good reasons.

It is never a good thing for a President to be impeached, but I think it is going to happen.  Yeah, I'm a Progressive and all that, but this isn't politics.  I suspect Trump is contaminated by Russian influence and we simply can't have that. 

I don't like Pence politically either, but I think he is clear of that.

Contaminated by Saudi influence?  By Israeli influence?  Impeach them all.  Start with that coup leader, George Washington.  Washington spoke British English (if we had tape recorders back then) ... clearly a British double agent (as was Franklin).  Jefferson was a French double agent.

So ... going back to McCarthy are we?  Gotta arrest all the gays ... and other degenerate elements in the US ... for making America's vital juices ... weak (sarc).
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Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 07:15:11 AM »
The term 'successful' is a relative term. Successful at what? Trump's agenda contradicts Obama's, so if one wished Obama to be successful in his endeavors, one cannot wish Trump to be, because that is a contradictory position to take. If one supported ACA, one cannot support its repeal -- in other words.

War in Syria increasing, not decreasing (see Syria shot down Israeli jet).  War coming soon in Korea (special ops currently training to take out NorK nuclear program).  The only agenda is the MIC agenda.  Domestic politics is mere distraction.

And no, unfortunately, the ACA was one of the first term reasons I opposed Obama .. for signing it, he didn't write it.  Those who wrote it, many got forced out in the 2010 elections.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 10:18:41 AM »
It is never a good thing for a President to be impeached, but I think it is going to happen.
It would be a hard sell with a Republican Congress.  A simple majority is required of the house, but 2/3 of the Senate has to be on board.

Offline Drew_2017

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 10:38:50 AM »
The term 'successful' is a relative term. Successful at what? Trump's agenda contradicts Obama's, so if one wished Obama to be successful in his endeavors, one cannot wish Trump to be, because that is a contradictory position to take. If one supported ACA, one cannot support its repeal -- in other words.

I measure a candidacy in two broad categories; the prosperity of the nation and the security of the nation. Issues like same sex marriage and gender neutral bathrooms are of little importance to me.   
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 01:17:53 PM »
I measure a candidacy in two broad categories; the prosperity of the nation and the security of the nation. Issues like same sex marriage and gender neutral bathrooms are of little importance to me.

I am pro-gay ... so same sex marriage ... yay for the team.  But single-issue-voters ... that is a problem, gay or straight.  If we liberated every Black person, gave them a billion dollars each, put them at the head of every corporation ... as compensation ... that would be fine for them ... but I don't think in the short run, it would lead to anything but chaos.  Society is a competitive game that plays for keeps, and only idiots play fair when it is for keeps.  Don't come to a gun fight with a knife.
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Offline Sylar (OP)

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 08:36:36 PM »
War in Syria increasing, not decreasing (see Syria shot down Israeli jet).  War coming soon in Korea (special ops currently training to take out NorK nuclear program).  The only agenda is the MIC agenda.  Domestic politics is mere distraction.

Syria didn't shoot down an Israeli plane - Israel denied it and I trust Israel more than Syria.

Anyways, I think the point you are making is that foreign policy is more important than domestic policy, and I disagree. Domestic policy is more important electorally speaking; foreign policy only matters when it's contextualized in how it impacts constituents. People simply care about how their daily lives are impacted, not about what happens 2, 3 thousands miles away.

No objection to who sets foreign policy agenda, though.

And no, unfortunately, the ACA was one of the first term reasons I opposed Obama .. for signing it, he didn't write it.  Those who wrote it, many got forced out in the 2010 elections.

I used ACA as an example to illustrate the contradiction between hoping Obama succeeds and hoping Trump succeeds, for it translates into supporting ACA and supporting its repeal.

ACA is imperfect legislation because Dems always try to play a fair game. They take government seriously. They seek to govern. One of the characteristics of government is compromise. GOP seeks to rule. They do not believe in government. Let me illustrate. The characteristics of a law is that it passes Congress and is signed by president, then a couple of years later Congress passes a technical fix to said law, and more changes a few years later down the road when it is reauthorized. That's similar to a tech company rolling out a new product, then repeatedly rolling out fixes, patches, updates, etc. to fix any loopholes or unforeseen problems/bugs.

When Bush's Medicare Part D plan had a disastrous rollout, Democrats bailed it out. When Obama's health care legislation passed through, GOP pointed at the problems and screamed "repeal and replace" for six straight years while doing all they can to discredit/destroy/defund the law, ignoring both liberal and conservative fixes. Some fixes just required a simple language change, like the glitch about the family of an employee with employer coverage losing government healthcare subsidies. GOP wanted to hurt the president and in the process hurt millions of Americans. They did so attacking what essentially is a Republican health care law (ACA largely based on Romney MA health care plan), just because this health care law is an achievement for the Obama administration. Never in the history of the United States do I recall such opposition to a piece of legislation, or perhaps I am just not knowledgeable enough.

Now the repeal and replace effort culminated in Trumpcare, a worse version of ACA. Instead of fixing imperfect law, they made it even worse.

I may not consider ACA a top piece of health care legislation, or a stepping stone towards single payer, but it surely beats the hell out of any GOP proposals and it adds some safeguards for those most vulnerable.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 09:14:32 PM »
"ACA is imperfect legislation because Dems always try to play a fair game. They take government seriously." ... D masturbation, Ds are the Master Race stuff.  Go tell that to LBJ or Jefferson Davis.
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Offline Sylar (OP)

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 09:41:42 PM »
"ACA is imperfect legislation because Dems always try to play a fair game. They take government seriously." ... D masturbation, Ds are the Master Race stuff.  Go tell that to LBJ or Jefferson Davis.

Hardly -- it's just my opinion about state of contemporary D party. The entire Democratic program hinges on a functioning federal government, so a working government is in their best favor and that's why they practice it honestly. They are unelectable otherwise. GOP spent 8 years stonewalling and were awarded 3 branches of government.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 09:42:56 PM »
Hardly -- it's just my opinion about state of contemporary D party. The entire Democratic program hinges on a functioning federal government, so a working government is in their best favor and that's why they practice it honestly. They are unelectable otherwise. GOP spent 8 years stonewalling and were awarded 3 branches of government.

Exactly ... your point?
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Offline Sylar (OP)

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 02:50:59 PM »
Exactly ... your point?

The point is ACA had no hope of ever being a success with all GOP hurdles in past 8 years, yet you are blaming Obama and those who drafted ACA. Sure, they did not write 100% foolproof legislation, but it is the job of our elected officials to fix existing legislation rather than to inform us of its shortcomings, then spend 6 years not only doing nothing to fix it but also making sure it fails even further.

Which brings us to my OP:
-President gets blamed for everything and anything during his tenure.
-Democrats must ensure Trump fails at all costs because, well, president gets blamed for everything and anything.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 07:07:45 PM »
The point is ACA had no hope of ever being a success with all GOP hurdles in past 8 years, yet you are blaming Obama and those who drafted ACA. Sure, they did not write 100% foolproof legislation, but it is the job of our elected officials to fix existing legislation rather than to inform us of its shortcomings, then spend 6 years not only doing nothing to fix it but also making sure it fails even further.

Which brings us to my OP:
-President gets blamed for everything and anything during his tenure.
-Democrats must ensure Trump fails at all costs because, well, president gets blamed for everything and anything.

But you are describing, not proscribing.  The fact that the US electorate is worthless .. has nothing to do with the ACA.  They want a free lunch, and they want it now.  But things are only free, to the extent that you enslave others.  This is why it is populist to rob and kill brown people.
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Offline trdsf

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2017, 12:11:38 AM »
Right now, the best way to defeat Asshole is to just let him be Asshole.  You already have the previously-unthinkable happening: Republicans openly disagreeing with their own president.  And the more the orange shitgibbon shoots off his mouth, the less worried I become.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Offline Baruch

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 12:24:17 AM »
Right now, the best way to defeat Asshole is to just let him be Asshole.  You already have the previously-unthinkable happening: Republicans openly disagreeing with their own president.  And the more the orange shitgibbon shoots off his mouth, the less worried I become.

The RNC President is JEB.  The Bush family is royal, not the Trump family.  Obama is related to Cheney ... a Fifth column.  Like the Republican created Al Qaida and ISIS, the barbarian horde that is the Tea Party, went rogue in 2016 ... as the actual Bernie-Bros nearly went rogue on the DNC.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Democrat Strategy vs. Trump
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 03:20:56 AM »
Contaminated by Saudi influence?  By Israeli influence?  Impeach them all.  Start with that coup leader, George Washington.  Washington spoke British English (if we had tape recorders back then) ... clearly a British double agent (as was Franklin).  Jefferson was a French double agent.

So ... going back to McCarthy are we?  Gotta arrest all the gays ... and other degenerate elements in the US ... for making America's vital juices ... weak (sarc).

Not a single thing you posted had ANYTHING to do with what I wrote.  Why do you do that? 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead