Author Topic: Let's rename objective morality  (Read 3137 times)

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2017, 06:12:24 PM »
Peace

Harmony

Compassion

Ever-giving

Long suffering for the sake of another

Self sacrifice for the sake of others.

Actually I could most likely make a list of words that indeed are universally good, but I'm trying to not bring words associated with faith into it, even though they can be wholly understood without religion.


I can most likely name off some universally negative or bad things too if you would like.

peace




faith in selfless unity for good
I should have known better than to open my big mouth............................:)

What is peace?  That is too broad a word; need to define it.  Same with harmony--what is that?  Compassion--what is that?  Ever--giving--what is that??? 

Long suffer for the sake of another and self sacrifice for the sake of others can be very harmful to the giver--and the givee as well.  And what does it mean to be 'self sacrificing' ??
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2017, 06:23:17 PM »
Pops, I really need you to withdraw all of your savings, liquidate your assets, come up to Northwest Indiana, pay my rent in advance, for as far into the future as you can, and massage my back. It shouldn't be a problem for you, since ever-giving, long suffering, self sacrifice is a universal good.
No savings or assets to be had. And the idea is those in need are those that should be helped. I wouldn't be putting all I had into simply giving to an able bodied man. Perhaps you are elderly or otherwise somehow disabled from supporting or providing for yourself then that would be different.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good


Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2017, 07:17:10 PM »
No savings or assets to be had. And the idea is those in need are those that should be helped. I wouldn't be putting all I had into simply giving to an able bodied man. Perhaps you are elderly or otherwise somehow disabled from supporting or providing for yourself then that would be different.
How selfish of you! Unless you are finally admitting that selflessness, and self-interest have to balance!

Any moral, made into a "universal," or absolute truth, is untenable.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 07:18:59 PM by Solomon Zorn »
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2017, 07:28:41 PM »
Again, my question still stands about using the term qualitative morality rather than objective morality for those people who are discussing morality.
I don't know if "qualitative" is the word I would use, for Dillahunty's brand of "objective" morality. But there should certainly be some word for it, that is less confusing than using a special definition of "objective."
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2017, 09:16:13 PM »


I should have known better than to open my big mouth............................:)

What is peace?  That is too broad a word; need to define it.  Same with harmony--what is that?  Compassion--what is that?  Ever--giving--what is that??? 

Long suffer for the sake of another and self sacrifice for the sake of others can be very harmful to the giver--and the givee as well.  And what does it mean to be 'self sacrificing' ??

First I'd like to add to things that are universally moral. The selfless conscience is a capacity universally imbued in all humans with normally functioning minds. It is the means to which objective morality actually becomes objective in my opinion.


peace

pēs/

noun

1.

freedom from disturbance; quiet and tranquility.

"you can while away an hour or two in peace and seclusion"

synonyms:tranquility, calm, restfulness, peace and quiet, peacefulness, quiet, quietness;

privacy, solitude

"can't a man get any peace around here?"

2.

freedom from or the cessation of war or violence.

"the Straits were to be open to warships in time of peace"

synonyms:law and order, lawfulness, order, peacefulness, peaceableness, harmony, nonviolence; 

formalconcord

"we pray for peace


har·mo·ny

ˈhärmənē/

noun

1.

the combination of simultaneously sounded musical notes to produce chords and chord progressions having a pleasing effect.

"four-part harmony in the barbershop style"

synonyms:euphony, polyphony;

tunefulness, melodiousness,mellifluousness

"musical harmony"

2.

agreement or concord.

"man and machine in perfect harmony"

synonyms:accord, agreement, peace, peacefulness, amity, amicability, friendship, fellowship, cooperation, understanding, consensus, unity, sympathy, rapport, like-mindedness; 

unison, union,concert, oneness, synthesis;

formalconcord

"the villagers live together in harmony"


com·pas·sion

kəmˈpaSHən/

noun

sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

"the victims should be treated with compassion"

synonyms:pity, sympathy, empathy, fellow feeling, care, concern, solicitude, sensitivity, warmth, love, tenderness, mercy, leniency, tolerance, kindness, humanity, charity

"have you no compassion for a fellow human being?"


Long suffering and self sacrifice for the benefit of another is not negative towards the other; and yes the level of detriment or discomfort one should endure for another can vary based on the severity of the need. Obviously you wouldn't need to sacrifice your life in order to hold a door open for someone, or help them carry something. Likewise; offering a dollar to a man actively shooting others most likely wouldn't really be beneficial to any, and could prove exceedingly detrimental to ones own health.

It really is very simple, though I'm sure you wish it was not for some reason.

Self sacrifice could mean missing a show you were looking forward to seeing because someone needed a favor. Or it could mean literal martyrdom, standing in the face of death do what one knows to be good. So basically self sacrifice would be setting aside ones own wants and needs in order to help another percievably in need in cases that you can. Obviously you can't do something about everything and you can't help everyone who needs it; let alone who wants it.


long-suf·fer·ing

ˈlôNG ˈˌsəf(ə)riNG/

adjective

having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people.

"his long-suffering wife"

synonyms:patient, forbearing, tolerant, uncomplaining, stoic, stoical, resigned; 

easygoing, indulgent,charitable, accommodating,forgiving, understanding

"her long-suffering parents"


self-sac·ri·fice

self ˈsakrəˌfīs/

noun

the giving up of one's own interests or wishes in order to help others or to advance a cause.

synonyms:self-denial, selflessness, unselfishness; 

self-discipline,abstinence, asceticism,abnegation, self-deprivation,moderation, austerity,temperance, abstention

"the self-sacrifice of these young men and women is indeed admirable"




I'm sorry if the standard definitions are too broad for you. They seem quite right to me; especially harmony.

what is peace....comon man


faith in selfless unity for good


Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2017, 09:24:30 PM »


How selfish of you! Unless you are finally admitting that selflessness, and self-interest have to balance!

Any moral, made into a "universal," or absolute truth, is untenable.

I never said that being utterly selfless to the point of ones own death for one not even in need was needed and will not.

I will admit equal value for life; yours being of no more value than mine, and visa versa.

To be clear; I would help you in any concievable fashion I could fathom, to any extent I could muster. The means is one issue, and you would actually needing something from me that I actually have too.

The balance is that  one life = one life.

How can you say that it isn't always universally good and moral to keep an innocent, healthy life from being killed?



faith in selfless unity for good


Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2017, 09:29:32 PM »
How can you say that it isn't always universally good and moral to keep an innocent, healthy life from being killed?
I didn't, actually. But if I thought about it long enough, I'm quite sure I could concieve of an exception.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2017, 09:32:12 PM »




Any moral, made into a "universal," or absolute truth, is untenable.



faith in selfless unity for good


Offline Solomon Zorn

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2017, 10:08:35 PM »
Quote from: popsthebuilder
Long suffering and self sacrifice for the benefit of another is not negative towards the other; and yes the level of detriment or discomfort one should endure for another can vary based on the severity of the need. Obviously you wouldn't need to sacrifice your life in order to hold a door open for someone, or help them carry something. Likewise; offering a dollar to a man actively shooting others most likely wouldn't really be beneficial to any, and could prove exceedingly detrimental to ones own health.
What you just described is subjective morality, in a nutshell. Many, if not most decisions, are more complex than any universal statements can encompass.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
It really is very simple, though I'm sure you wish it was not for some reason.
Morality is only simple to simpletons(in which category I would not place you). You have just outlined a few of the complexities, and exceptions, but still hold to the idea that self sacrifice is a "universal good."

Quote from: popsthebuilder
Self sacrifice could mean missing a show you were looking forward to seeing because someone needed a favor. Or it could mean literal martyrdom, standing in the face of death do what one knows to be good. So basically self sacrifice would be setting aside ones own wants and needs in order to help another percievably in need in cases that you can.
Agreed, on your definition of "self-sacrifice," although I never thought we had a semantic issue.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
Obviously you can't do something about everything and you can't help everyone who needs it; let alone who wants it.
Never said you could.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2017, 11:01:22 PM »
What you just described is subjective morality, in a nutshell. Many, if not most decisions, are more complex than any universal statements can encompass.
Morality is only simple to simpletons(in which category I would not place you). You have just outlined a few of the complexities, and exceptions, but still hold to the idea that self sacrifice is a "universal good."
Agreed, on your definition of "self-sacrifice," although I never thought we had a semantic issue.
Never said you could.
I'm not sure if I had addresses you in all those points specifically, but the subjective/ odjective thing is itself subjective as is every single thing one experiences in life. My point here is that nearly all of us have a conscience. It may not be being used or heard or listened to, but it is there. We all have the capacity to negate greed. These things coupled bring about what I call the selfless conscience, and it is as close to utterly absolute as any true sense of objective morality can be, in my opinion. It's as close to not a silly word game as it gets in terms of singular accord divided among how many billions?


Anyway; you are right....technically...everything is subjective.

But that doesn't mean that things aren't similar enough to be considered the same, or at least from a singular.....Wait.....Pumping the brakes....Not supposed to go there.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:04:30 PM by popsthebuilder »

Offline Baruch

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2017, 11:13:32 PM »

I never said that being utterly selfless to the point of ones own death for one not even in need was needed and will not.

I will admit equal value for life; yours being of no more value than mine, and visa versa.

To be clear; I would help you in any concievable fashion I could fathom, to any extent I could muster. The means is one issue, and you would actually needing something from me that I actually have too.

The balance is that  one life = one life.

How can you say that it isn't always universally good and moral to keep an innocent, healthy life from being killed?



faith in selfless unity for good

in the Jataka tales, of the Buddha's prior incarnations ... he had come upon a starving tiger mother, unable to feed her cubs, he gave up his own life in compassion for them.  Now that is a cat lover!

On the other hand, I could take an honest rogue any day, over a masochistic saint.  Jesus included.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:15:22 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2017, 03:00:40 AM »
I agree that there are few universal truths or morals

Offline Baruch

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2017, 06:30:06 AM »
I agree that there are few universal truths or morals

Wisdom means making an intro post ;-)  The forum moderators are the guardians of truth ... and the galaxy.
שלום

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2017, 09:08:42 AM »
I agree that there are few universal truths or morals
Actually, there are none.  Can you name just one??
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: Let's rename objective morality
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2017, 02:17:13 PM »
Actually, there are none.  Can you name just one??

Universal truth:

No matter how long you've been dealing with the human race, it keeps finding new and unexpected ways to fail your encreasingly lowered expectations.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.