Infrastructure for Tyrants, thank Bush/Obama

[Shiranu]

//http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/

Pretty interesting little piece about how, even assuming Bush/Obama NEVER abused these laws (which we have evidence to the contrary of, including outright admissions), the infrastructure for a tyrant has been set up by the laws and normalization of government abuse.

The right to indefinitely detain without charge, the right to restart our torture programs, to kill people in secret (including American citizens) without any sort of judicial or legislative review... when you hear those things, that sounds like a leaflet for everything America should be against, but nope; that's just the new norm for us.

[GurrenLagann]

Hm, this disturbs me greatly. :(

[stromboli]

There is so much back story to what is happening now, that not thinking it is a conspiracy becomes harder. 9/11 and all the events leading up to it, and everything since certainly lends fuel to it. We have become a 1984 society in many ways, and I find it scary. The fact that this was going on before 9/11 is very unsettling.

[mykcob4]

The only thing that I have seen evidence of is the effects by Chaney and Nixon. I haven't seen ANY evidence of the Obama administration abuse or breaking ANY laws whatsoever! I really hate the cynics that say all politicians are the same....corrupt!
The fact is that yes all political parties have corrupt people, but the conservatives are ideologically corrupt. The corrupt corps own and control the conservatives. They use FOX and various sources to spread false and misleading information to include panic and false indignation.
As far as the recent events concerning the investigation of leaks, no law was broken, and those targeted for investigation were not targeted for their political views but rather because they were involved with leaking sensative information.
As far as the IRS socalled scandal...the IRS investigated organizations that were moving LARGE ammounts of money all under the cover of being a tax exempt organization. That is the IRS's job for crying out loud.
So when I see people crying about the government "taking away freedoms" I review the source and search for what the government is really doing.
"W" tried to silent opposition and censor the media. NIxon actually tried to use the IRS to intimidate that he didn't like....ofcourse he failed. The president doesn'thave ANY administrative powers over the treasury in any way. The House holds the purse strings and adminstrates the Treasury!
The president cannot subvert the law no matter what anyone thinks. Nixon tried but failed. Chaney tried and had some small success, but ultimately failed. So for all these scandals, I say there are much ado about nothing.
No black helicopters are heading our way. No armored men are going to break in and take your guns. The content of your cell calls are not being data minded, without a court order AND probable cause.

[Plu]

There was no claim of any abuse or breaking any laws either. The article is about how they made things that should make people protest into, so that they can now do things that people should find morally reprehensible without having to break the law.

Did you even read the article mykcob?

[Shiranu]

The only thing that I have seen evidence of is the effects by Chaney and Nixon. I haven't seen ANY evidence of the Obama administration abuse or breaking ANY laws whatsoever! I really hate the cynics that say all politicians are the same....corrupt!
The fact is that yes all political parties have corrupt people, but the conservatives are ideologically corrupt. The corrupt corps own and control the conservatives. They use FOX and various sources to spread false and misleading information to include panic and false indignation.
As far as the recent events concerning the investigation of leaks, no law was broken, and those targeted for investigation were not targeted for their political views but rather because they were involved with leaking sensative information.
As far as the IRS socalled scandal...the IRS investigated organizations that were moving LARGE ammounts of money all under the cover of being a tax exempt organization. That is the IRS's job for crying out loud.
So when I see people crying about the government "taking away freedoms" I review the source and search for what the government is really doing.
"W" tried to silent opposition and censor the media. NIxon actually tried to use the IRS to intimidate that he didn't like....ofcourse he failed. The president doesn'thave ANY administrative powers over the treasury in any way. The House holds the purse strings and adminstrates the Treasury!

Dude, I voted for Obama... twice. I like him as a person, and politically I preferred him to Mitt Romney. That said...

Obama is a Republican. Lite, perhaps, but Republican all the same. Just because he is from the more "liberal" of the two parties (and I use that term lightly, since both parties are mid-far right) does not mean I won't call him on his shit.

Now I will grant you that the issues Fox and conservatives bash him over are either non-issues or something I personally agree with. But the stuff in the article has nothing to do with the IRS, the "evil" Obama-care, or gay marriage, or gun control... it has to do with things the Republicans AGREE WITH and won't call him out over because of that.

Warrant-less wire-tapping? Check. Murder of American citizens without trial or judicial review? Check ([1]I will post a link to that in a second). Indefinite detention without trial or charge? Check (see; Bradly Manning [which also falls into torture and human rights abuse, among other things], Guantanamo Bay [same as before]).

These are things Obama, Bush and the government has to be called on, because they are neither liberal nor conservative ideals; they are authoritarian and oppressive laws and precedents that have no place in a democracy that values freedom and human rights. And even if Obama, Bush, Cheney or whoever do and did them with the purest of intentions, the fact stands that now that these practices are acceptable and that if someone who wasn't as pure wanted to abuse them, they would have the legal right to.

The president cannot subvert the law no matter what anyone thinks. Nixon tried but failed. Chaney tried and had some small success, but ultimately failed. So for all these scandals, I say there are much ado about nothing.
No black helicopters are heading our way. No armored men are going to break in and take your guns. The content of your cell calls are not being data minded, without a court order AND probable cause.

He doesn't have to subvert the law; he does what he wants, and when people call him on it (if it is lucky enough to even makes it to public knowledge) the courts rule that these things are perfectly acceptable behaviour in a democracy. Why? Because we are at war. Because terrorists. Because they are here to make sure you are safe in secure tonight in bed. All the while they use the American people's fear as an excuse to shit all over the Constitution, personal and human rights, and do what ever the hell they want.

[1]//http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/7/exclusive_nasser_al_awlaki_to_obama
^--- This is the U.S. admitting it killed 4 American citizens... without charge, without trial (at least one, the son, was "collateral damage"). What did the politicians say? "It was necessary. It's tough, but in war sometimes you have to do stuff like this, and we are legally justified in it.".

And so far, I have yet to see the Supreme Court, Senate or House raise arms over this. Infact, most of them agree that this is perfectly acceptable behaviour.

I don't know what you were talking about mate, but it had nothing to do with the topic. Obama ain't no saint though, I can tell you that much.

[Shiranu]

There is so much back story to what is happening now, that not thinking it is a conspiracy becomes harder. 9/11 and all the events leading up to it, and everything since certainly lends fuel to it. We have become a 1984 society in many ways, and I find it scary. The fact that this was going on before 9/11 is very unsettling.

While I see where you are coming from, I think 9/11 is more of an effect of us transitioning to a war-based/global police/disregard-for-the-law government than an intentional event helping push us in that direction.

When you think about it, why should we expect people who over-threw governments in Latin America, East Europe or the Middle East, tortured people around the globe, injected blacks with AIDs and imported heroin to be sold in inner cities to have ever given a shit about civil liberties?

I think 9/11 was blowback for their actions, unintentional though inevitable, and they jumped on the opportunity to push their agenda that much harder. I think it was less of a conspiracy and more of a action-reaction-exploitation event.