Author Topic: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump  (Read 1403 times)

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2017, 01:46:13 PM »
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.

The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.
"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2017, 03:35:24 PM »
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.

The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.
Also, the government, when it is working as one solid republican monster, it is even more powerful than the law. Checks and balances will rarely happen, if at all.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Online Munch

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2017, 04:32:16 PM »
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.

The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.

If that was the case, what was to stop the supreme court from doing nasty, evil things back when obama was in power then? If its not just the president but everything else, then what made it such a certainty that the members of the supreme court were all on the peoples side at the time, and are not now, just because of 1 of trumps elected members in it?

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2017, 04:51:57 PM »
If that was the case, what was to stop the supreme court from doing nasty, evil things back when obama was in power then? If its not just the president but everything else, then what made it such a certainty that the members of the supreme court were all on the peoples side at the time, and are not now, just because of 1 of trumps elected members in it?
Uhh. Part of the reason so many bad, nasty things didn't happen was because Obama has more of a conscience than Trump.

But even if we take the political bias out of it, most of the things he tried to get done was blocked by republicans. Democrats did not dominate the 3 branches during his terms.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2017, 04:55:35 PM »
I also think it's pretty easy for you to make it seem so.... harmless... since you live on the other side of the pond and aren't directly dealing with this. A misunderstanding of how the U.S. government functions might be an issue too.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2017, 05:00:19 PM »
Quote
f that was the case, what was to stop the supreme court from doing nasty, evil things back when obama was in power then?

I didn't realise the British and American governments were that different. Without having to write a poli. sci. text book for you...

The Supreme Court is not capable of establishing laws, only interpreting existing laws within the (their interpretation) context of what the Constitution says is legal or not and thus deciding if a law shale or shale not remain in effect. Thus the Supreme Court, while the last word on any law passed, cannot do anything, "nasty, evil" by itself because it has no power to actually implement a law.

That said, there is nothing to stop them from interpreting laws for the worst regardless of who the president was, and since the court was balanced towards a conservative view before the death of Scalia, it did infact uphold some really shitty laws under Obama, Bush, and many others; see recently Kelo v. City of New London (taking private land from an owner and giving it to a land development company = legal), Exxon Shipping Co. v. Baker (where Exxon had to pay pennies for one of the worst environmental disasters in history, greatly boosting their stock [which one of the justices had stock in] and of course Citizens United. And of course you cant forget Bush v. Gore, where the Republican majority Supreme Court halted the recount in Florida and gave Bush the win by default.

If you want to get more historic, also check out, Hammer v. Daggerhart (Child labour is legal), Plessy v. Ferguson (Jim Crow-era) Dred Scott (blacks are not human beings) and as recently as 86', Bowers v. Hardrick upholding Georgia's discriminatory laws against the LGBT community.

Quote
If its not just the president but everything else, then what made it such a certainty that the members of the supreme court were all on the peoples side at the time, and are not now, just because of 1 of trumps elected members in it?

Edit: Actually, re-read that... never said the Supreme Court was. The Supreme Court under Scalia was terrible, and I think my and other's posts here throughout the years show we never thought the SC was a tool for good. The problem is that it is now looking at becoming a tool for even worse.


End edit: The Supreme Court has nothing to do with Trump (yet). The Republican party existed before Trump, and held similar views to him before Trump was even a blip on the political radar. The problem is that with Trump and more radical Republicans winning seats in the Senate and House, every single branch of the government now has a Republican/neo-con majority... thus eliminating the system of checks and balances.

To go back to the SC though, in a few years... it is quite possible the SC will have everything to do with Trump since he already has one person in place and several of the Justices, including the more progressive ones, are getting near that death-y type of age. It's well within the realm of reason that Trump will get several Justice picks... which means his impact will be felt for another 20, 30, 40 years of lawmaking (or interpretation as the case may be).

Seriously though, if you are going to weigh in on American politics... do some of this research yourself. Frankly, the American poli. sci. field is really fascinating and interesting to learn about, so it's not like it's a chore.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:03:30 PM by Shiranu »
"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2017, 05:05:35 PM »
I also think it's pretty easy for you to make it seem so.... harmless... since you live on the other side of the pond and aren't directly dealing with this. A misunderstanding of how the U.S. government functions might be an issue too.

This x100.
"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Online Munch

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2017, 05:25:51 PM »
I also think it's pretty easy for you to make it seem so.... harmless... since you live on the other side of the pond and aren't directly dealing with this. A misunderstanding of how the U.S. government functions might be an issue too.

Thats seems kind of dismissive don't you think? We live in an age of information now, its not like 30 years ago when the only information we got came from bias newspapers and news stations about what was happening in the world. Thats like saying you can't have an opinion on brexit because you don't live here?

Quote
Seriously though, if you are going to weigh in on American politics... do some of this research yourself. Frankly, the American poli. sci. field is really fascinating and interesting to learn about, so it's not like it's a chore.

I would do, but it feels pointless to weigh in more heavily on it, since your own opinion is so bias anyway it wouldn't matter what facts are drawn up. ;)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:27:41 PM by Munch »

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2017, 05:27:51 PM »
Thats seems kind of dismissive don't you think? We live in an age of information now, its not like 30 years ago when the only information we got came from bias newspapers and news stations about what was happening in the world. Thats like saying you can't have an opinion on brexit because you don't live here?

It's the age of information, but you don't show any knowledge of how it works. There is nothing wrong with admitting that, nor someone acknowledging that it seems that way, as was the case here.
"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2017, 05:30:16 PM »
Let's put it this way, Munch. It's getting so bad here with far right conservatives taking control, that I'm agreeing with Shiranu more.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2017, 05:46:47 PM »
Quote
I would do, but it feels pointless to weigh in more heavily on it, since your own opinion is so bias anyway it wouldn't matter what facts are drawn up. ;)

So you rather be ignorant to smite me than learn about a subject because it is both globally relevant and just interesting?

I don't think that stab at me has as much barb as you thought. But either way, the SC issue is explained above, if you are so inclined to learn about it, and it has nothing to do with bias towards anyone.


Edit: Just realised you quoted that from said post. Wow. I knew when I was writing it I shouldn't have bothered.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 06:00:18 PM by Shiranu »
"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Online Munch

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2017, 06:07:24 PM »
Let's put it this way, Munch. It's getting so bad here with far right conservatives taking control, that I'm agreeing with Shiranu more.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

thats kinda scary tbh.

But serious now, obviously you've reason to be concerned, but given the climate america has to it, this was a certainy that it was gonna happen eventually, two party systems will swing back and forth. My mums got a friend from California, older gay guy she made friends with online, and he's deeply concerned about the way things are going, I haven't really had a chance to discuss his political side of things or feelings about both sides of this, but I'm certain he feels the same way, and my heart goes out to him,

I'm old enough to have lived though labour and conservative government back and forth, and I've seen the best and worst of it. On the ground level, labour was always appearing to be more for the everyday man, while the conservatives were in for the elite, business practices, so from the little guys pov, labour had it better. But after Tony Blair, the status of the labour party got heavily damaged by him so much, that the conservatives have been leading in the polls here since his day.

Now where it stands today, rights and regulations passed here in the uk that I'd say have been the most progressive its been in years, and this was under a conservative rule, which well having the kind of stuff you expect from a conservative government, we still came ahead under what you can consider to be the party that you'd expect to draw things back.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/six-ways-in-which-the-conservatives-became-britains-true-progressives/

Not to say I'd ever be a voting conservative, it just surprised me how inspite of how things were in the past with this current political party, it showed a level of stability most people didn't expect (many saying cameron, despite his dodgy misgivings, was more left leaning anyway).

Now, to say I don't have a clue (like some here *ahem*) about how the political system works in other countries, I feel i know more then expected, given one of my friends is half american, with american family, yet lives in denmark, yet still voted for hillary (duel citizenship). We often have discussions about the events happening in america right now, the unrest, what can be expected from it based on history, and the old notion of those not learning from history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't really need a deep understanding of the workings of a political system of regulations, I simply have to observe events as they happen, and since I am living outside of america I can look at these events in more of an unbias pov, same as you guys can look at the brexit from the same angle, since it wouldn't effect you.

On trump, I think he's repugnant, and the men he has around him equally the same. He's a swindler, a liar, an easily trigger verging on sociopath, and he will do some damage to america on the ground level. But that might just work out for the better, because with the way the political system works where you are, you sometimes need to crawl though a river of shit to get free.
That said, because of the kind of creature trump is, this also brought to the front the worst side of left too, I won't go back into it, but lets just say a lot of events lately only helped trumps standing where he is, unfortunate, but true.


Now to Shiranu, yes, I knew the supreme court doesn't make laws, just interpreting them. That said establishing a set of rules and regulations based on executive orders is the mandate of any president, within the legal system, and from what i've seen so far it can be overturned by judges across the land, meaning there is more of a defense system in place to block and uphold standards within the american system.

Trump is more then likely now learning he isn't all powerful, so that should give people some reassurance that he can only go so far with what orders he makes. Also do you honestly believe he will win a second term in office, allowing him to elect another judge?

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2017, 06:09:40 PM »
Munch, what I pointed out was not just simply an issue of ignorance, it's also an issue of direct interest. In no way though, was it an insult. You, because of your location, are 1- not equipped with the understanding of what exactly is going on in this country to the point that we are and 2- are not directly affected by it, so your priority is more in line with a recreational interest at best. Similarly to how brexit, while it does indirectly affect us in the U.S. does not directly affect us and we have less of a focus than you did. I don't even know if Brexit is a good comparison to Trump's regime and the far right that took control of our government, but it's the closest I can think of.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Online Munch

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2017, 06:10:23 PM »
So you rather be ignorant to smite me than learn about a subject because it is both globally relevant and just interesting?

I don't think that stab at me has as much barb as you thought. But either way, the SC issue is explained above, if you are so inclined to learn about it, and it has nothing to do with bias towards anyone.


Edit: Just realised you quoted that from said post. Wow. I knew when I was writing it I shouldn't have bothered.

Its like said, I'm just an outsider looking in, I don't live in america, so I can only get a pov from those living there.

Online Munch

Re: Trevor Noah - Al Jazeera Interview on Trump
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2017, 06:17:22 PM »
Munch, what I pointed out was not just simply an issue of ignorance, it's also an issue of direct interest. In no way though, was it an insult. You, because of your location, are 1- not equipped with the understanding of what exactly is going on in this country to the point that we are and 2- are not directly affected by it, so your priority is more in line with a recreational interest at best. Similarly to how brexit, while it does indirectly affect us in the U.S. does not directly affect us and we have less of a focus than you did. I don't even know if Brexit is a good comparison to Trump's regime and the far right that took control of our government, but it's the closest I can think of.

Its more on the level that we can look at both events and give our perspective on it, you don't have to live in a country to agree or disagree with decisions made in that country. You guys over the pond can agree or disagree with brexit, I can agree and disagee with whatever your current government decides. However much like how brexit would indirectly effect things like oversea trading, likewise something like trump effects things on a larger scale, since imagine if he decided to go after america run businesses online, youtube, google, ebay, amazon, smaller independent sites and businesses, on a global scale its not unfounded to think these things coming under threat.

And then, theres the issue of war, remembering the bush era gives a fine example of how the leading government in one country effects things in another, its still a parody today of how bush had blair on a lead, and the british forces were doing whatever orders came from over there, so it does effect things across here on that level.