Author Topic: How out of touch is the left?  (Read 1556 times)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2017, 01:22:16 AM »
well Europe is in a different situation than the U.S.. After all someone with a good pair of shoes, could walk to Europe from the middle east.

I think Hillary was a little out of touch with the people, but Hillary isn't the whole left. I think we should be looking at the issue from a completely different perspective than Democrat vs Republican. We can't forget that the U.S. is supposed to be a "Christian" nation. There are a lot of Christians in this country that consider muslims to be their arch-enemy. The idea of letting a muslim come to "our Christian" nation for any reason is completely unacceptable. Certain zenophobes; including Trump; would like to deport every muslim.

I guess you could say that in their effort to make equality of all religions the left forgot how zealous the right is about eliminating all non-Christians from our "Christian" nation.
you and your psychosis

Offline Cavebear

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2017, 01:35:28 AM »
I think it is worth noting that all religions have, have had, and will have violent and destructive fanatics.  That one particular religion seems to have a majority of them at the moment is merely a happenstance of geopolitical history.

On the other hand, one particular religion IS the main extremist problem at the moment. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2017, 05:08:01 AM »
You just don't like liberals.  You started this thread to claim the left is out touch so you could gloat about your European poll.
Left or right, 45% of Europeans don't agree with you.  But you did well, you got a 55%.  That's better than half.    Everyone is impressed.  Go give yourself a pat on the back.

Again, the inability to discuss a topic without making it about the person bringing up the topic.

That is such a basic (and easily avoided) fallacy. 

Liberal:



There are Obama videos that are almost word for word.  That is State of Union address, not election propaganda - though some would argue campaigning never ends. 

The migrant issue in the EU is similar to the migrant issue along the US borders. 

Brexit is not a symptom, it is honesty from the voters.  The EU has several elections coming up in the next year and the liberal side is in a panic there, employing the same tactics they rail against, censorship, banning of free speech, and other jack-boot thug efforts to silence those who's ideas inspire the plebs.

Offline Cavebear

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2017, 06:23:53 AM »
Again, the inability to discuss a topic without making it about the person bringing up the topic.

That is such a basic (and easily avoided) fallacy. 

Liberal:



There are Obama videos that are almost word for word.  That is State of Union address, not election propaganda - though some would argue campaigning never ends. 

The migrant issue in the EU is similar to the migrant issue along the US borders. 

Brexit is not a symptom, it is honesty from the voters.  The EU has several elections coming up in the next year and the liberal side is in a panic there, employing the same tactics they rail against, censorship, banning of free speech, and other jack-boot thug efforts to silence those who's ideas inspire the plebs.

There is legitimate border control (which I fully support) and there is repressive border control.  Yesterday, a 35 year old woman whose only crime was to make up a SSN to get a job years ago was sent to Mexico.  She hadn't lived there since she was 14.  She hardly knows Mexico.  She had a job and a family here.  She was causing no harm.  That is bad deportation.

Yes, I generally agree that if you are here illegally, you are illegal.  I don't sugar-coat that.  But surely we have better things to do than deport such a person. 

Many people can say that their grandparents or such were casual immigrants.  I'm not one of them.  My ancestors are "American Perfect" in the sense that they came over on the Mayflower and such.  Whoopee...

I say that if you are here, working, learned English,pay taxes etc, you can stay.

Throughout all of history, the people who have dared to leave their homelands in search of a better life have been the best people any country could ask for.  In the past, "we" have despised the Irish, Italians, Germans, etc who came.  Until they became "US".  Can you tell the difference?  Are they not "American"?

That woman's children are completely and utterly "American".  If you met them casually, you would not notice a difference. 

I say let their mother stay with them!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline SGOS

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2017, 06:49:13 AM »
Again, the inability to discuss a topic without making it about the person bringing up the topic.
That is such a basic (and easily avoided) fallacy. 
How is that different than introducing a topic as an excuse to denigrate a whole group?  Again, it's OK when you do it, but a fallacy when someone else does it?

Offline Cavebear

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2017, 07:02:58 AM »
How is that different than introducing a topic as an excuse to denigrate a whole group?  Again, it's OK when you do it, but a fallacy when someone else does it?

Nice...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2017, 07:34:38 AM »
There is legitimate border control (which I fully support) and there is repressive border control.  Yesterday, a 35 year old woman whose only crime was to make up a SSN to get a job years ago was sent to Mexico. 
She has multiple crimes.  Even if you cut her slack for being 14, at 18 she chose to stay.  Being held to the same standards as citizens (ie ss# fraud), it is a serious crime.  If she just made up the number, and it was actually attached to a living citizen, it could (and may have) caused many problems for the innocent citizen who now is flagged by the IRS for not claiming their entire wage, or finding themselves fighting bad credit (depending on outcome), all things we are not privileged to via your snippet of info.

Do I blame them overall for trying to buck the system?  No. I understand that they are looking for a better life.  I have worked with illegals in several jobs over the last 10 years.  As individuals, sure they are nice people I have no quarrel with.  HOWEVER, when discussing such things this is a 100% answer "no, I never tried to do it legal because its too hard". 

Sorry but I have worked with plenty of legal immigrants who floated half way across the globe to achieve the american dream legally.  My boss right now is a legal immigrant.  Co-workers last year who were born in refugee camps and waited as family members made their way legally and worked to get the rest of the family here legally.  Africans who fled brutal episodes of ethnic cleansing in their home countries and yet managed to come to the usa legally.

Enforcement of the law is the ONLY sure fire method to reduce illegal immigration.  And that includes nailing employers twice as harshly for using undocumented workers.  But in this case (based on the limited info) one cannot go after the employer because of the fraud on the womans part.

The buck has to stop somewhere.

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2017, 07:38:06 AM »
How is that different than introducing a topic as an excuse to denigrate a whole group?  Again, it's OK when you do it, but a fallacy when someone else does it?
Ah another fallacy to complete your day!

So, how out of touch do you think the left is?

Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2017, 09:11:59 AM »
I have sympathy.  The law is a blunt instrument, it should be wielded selectively, not mechanically.  The traffic cop is right ... if there was more than one speeder, he only needs to give a ticket to the one he stops, not to every speeder.  The goal isn't a law & order hell hole, the goal is to make drivers think twice.

On the larger question however, I recognize that all people are criminals, and all this law & order crap is the larger Mafia (government) suppressing the smaller Mafias.  I am a very small Mafia (one person, a mother in nursing home, two cats, and a handicapped daughter still living with her mom) ... so I keep a low profile.  But I am under no illusions about "virtue signaling".
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2017, 09:15:24 AM »
Ah another fallacy to complete your day!

So, how out of touch do you think the left is?

Reality intrudes on perfection.  Most illegals are doing useful work.  Try to get a citizen to pick your grapes.  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2017, 09:18:15 AM »
Reality intrudes on perfection.  Most illegals are doing useful work.  Try to get a citizen to pick your grapes.  LOL!

No problem with a police state.  They may even make you pick grapes.  And execute you if you try to eat one without permission.  Atheists simply don't believe that evil exists.  Total computer control of everything everyone does is coming ... it is Caligula's wet dream.  And IT people like me are going to make it happen.
שלום

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2017, 11:53:18 AM »
Reality intrudes on perfection.  Most illegals are doing useful work.  Try to get a citizen to pick your grapes.  LOL!
I have worked as a migrant farm worker.  All the people in that location were legal citizens.  My current job is seasonal agriculture work and I really like my job.  Every one there is a legal worker.

Beyond that, there are legal methods for migrant workers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-2A_Visa

But I think you are aware of that and attempting to support your position with a falsehood.


Offline SGOS

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2017, 11:58:06 AM »
Most illegals are doing useful work.

I don't know how much experience I've had with illegals, because I can't tell an illegal from a legal, but my limited experience in small communities with Muslims and Hindus is from professionals in healthcare, and operators of small businesses. 

It might be different in big cities.  I grew up in a suburb of Chicago, which was populated mostly by Czech immigrants when I lived there.  The Czechs are now gone, and have been replaced by Latinos, but they aren't just driving around in their low riders selling drugs.  They operate legitimate businesses, sometimes with only one person in house that speaks English.  This is sometimes a minor inconvenience, but not insurmountable if I can at least conduct business with one staff member.

Having said that, I do have a bias that if you want to take advantage of what the US offers, you should seek citizenship.  I've heard this if often difficult, but is that really too much to deal with?  I only know one person that came here on a visa, but 6 months later had her citizenship taken care of.  If Mexicans just want to visit, I don't have a problem with Mexicans coming here for a short stay, the same as US citizens cross into Canada or Mexico, with a brief stop at the border.  I don't see the need for a visa if that's the case.  Although if they come to work, some mechanism for paying income taxes, and meeting the requirements for employment that the rest of us deal with as conditions for employment is probably in order.

I honestly don't know how a big of a chaotic free-for-all we actually deal with.  I hear it's a big problem, and will accept that, but I get a sense that it might be overblown or the government would actually deal with it.  Trump may or may not be driven mostly by xenophobia, but if there is a problem, it should be dealt with.

Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2017, 12:11:22 PM »
Was Obama, the greatest deporter in history, a xenophobe?

“THUS DID A HANDFUL OF RAPACIOUS CITIZENS COME TO CONTROL ALL THAT WAS WORTH CONTROLLING IN AMERICA. THUS WAS THE SAVAGE AND STUPID AND ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE AND UNNECESSARY AND HUMORLESS AMERICAN CLASS SYSTEM CREATED. HONEST, INDUSTRIOUS, PEACEFUL CITIZENS WERE CLASSED AS BLOODSUCKERS, IF THEY ASKED TO BE PAID A LIVING WAGE. AND THEY SAW THAT PRAISE WAS RESERVED HENCEFORTH FOR THOSE WHO DEVISED MEANS OF GETTING PAID ENORMOUSLY FOR COMMITTING CRIMES.” KURT VONNEGUT

This is why you can't have nice things.

Bill Kristol, jive turkey for the upper classes:
Reporter: “Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?”
 
Kristen: "Basically if you are in free society, a capitalist society, after two, three, four generations of hard work, everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled, whatever."

Cavebear agrees with this former Trotsky-ite, who morphed into a neocon.
שלום

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2017, 04:27:44 PM »
Was Obama, the greatest deporter in history, a xenophobe?

“THUS DID A HANDFUL OF RAPACIOUS CITIZENS COME TO CONTROL ALL THAT WAS WORTH CONTROLLING IN AMERICA. THUS WAS THE SAVAGE AND STUPID AND ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE AND UNNECESSARY AND HUMORLESS AMERICAN CLASS SYSTEM CREATED....
Let them eat Grapes I say!!

Compassionate slavery maybe?  I suppose it's for our own good.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 04:29:37 PM by chill98 »