Author Topic: How out of touch is the left?  (Read 2119 times)

Online Shiranu

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 08:53:17 AM »
Shiranu, seems anyone who disagrees with you is someone who "doesn't know what their talking about" these days. Funny how your the only correct one, must be lonely.

Not really, no. It's just a few of you.

And sorry for not changing my opinions just for the trivial reason of wanting you to like me?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:08:25 AM by Shiranu »
"Too curious flower, watching us pass, met death; Our hungry donkey." - Basho

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." - Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 12:56:39 PM »
Not really, no. It's just a few of you.

And sorry for not changing my opinions just for the trivial reason of wanting you to like me?

I like you anyway ;-)
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Offline Munch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 05:35:30 PM »
Not really, no. It's just a few of you.

And sorry for not changing my opinions just for the trivial reason of wanting you to like me?

I've never disliked you, its only certain things you've said that I'm against and disagree with. I'm not trying to change your opinion either, but am trying to lay out the problems I have with certain things you've said.

Its kind of like how I use to be subscribed to steve shives, he use to make interesting videos back in the day, and I found it informative. however, over the years, steven started to make an echo chamber around what be believed, to the point that anyone with even the smallest differing of opinion to his, he blocked them, blacklisted them, and kicked subs from his channel for disagreeing with him, he became someone who didn't like objection to his thoughts, and he lost a lot of people who saw him for what he had become.

I'm someone who because of what brought me to realize the bullshit that religion makes people into, the cult status of it, I now look at all religions in the same way, while you will get good people who happen to follow these cultist ideals, they are still things that can make people loose any sense of reason, logic and worst, from being analytical to such notions that unless you follow it to the letter, your somehow worse for it. Thats honestly a terrifying concept to me, that people can pull you in so deeply into a group mindset, that you can't even analysis it or criticize it.

and I'm sorry to say, modern third way feminism has the same problems religions have, in it is a hive mind where any criticism of it gets meet with the same vitriol as a religious group would to their beliefs. Theres good that can come from it, and I know thats what you want from those ideals, but it isn't worth letting go of reasonable analysis of what you believe in, simple because there are ideas in that group you happen to adhere to.

Trump is an asshole, yes, I can't stand the guy, but same time, the womens march was headed by an islamic preacher and a convicted murderer, so both sides of that whole thing was a mess. Milo Yiannopoulos follows a political system that is counter to his own lifestyle, so what he preaches is bullshit, but same time those who used him presence as an reason to burn down businesses and attack anyone on the other side of their political belief are jusr as bad, worse even, because the guy has never resorted to violence to get his thoughts out there.

Rant over, but the point is Shi, I don't dislike you, I only criticize certain things you defend adamantly, because since you being an atheist yourself know how off religion can be with twisting people and their free thought, I believe your able to see and analysis the same thing in any group think, regardless what it claims to be.   

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM »
No, the split is 55/45.  You are breaking the group who is not in agreement with you into two separate categories, making a big deal out of the 25% that neither agree or disagree, and thereby marginalizing them as the excluded middle.  It's a statistical fallacy, because by definition, that 25% do not agree with you, while the other 20% outright oppose you.  The fact that some of them may not disagree is functionally irrelevant, because none of them agree with you.

First its not my survey.  I posted exactly what the survey authors posted.

Its not my fallacy, its yours.  Statistically speaking, you toss out the Don't Care/Don't Answer and work with what you get.  It works both ways.  The 25% does not agree with the No percentage either.

55/20 is more accurate. 

For every 1 who said no, 2.5 said yes. 

Nice sjw move assigning the *I don't give a shit* portion to the *excluded middle*  ever-the-victim of some overbearing pollster.

But thats not your quarrel with the opinion of Europeans as revealed here:

Quote
it doesn't make your position more moral or even more accurate. 

I didn't bring morality into the discussion.  I found the poll to be very interesting being as I had been under the impression that the citizenry of the EU was more open to this influx.  Additionally, I felt it important to distinguish the poll was taken BEFORE Trumps EO as to imply his action wasn't an influence on the results.

This is probably the most surprising result:

Secondary and Below    59    26    15
Post-Secondary    55    25    20
UG & PG Degree    48    24    27

This is the one section I really thought would tip the other way.  Not quite the 2:1 ratio but surprisingly broad considering what I have been lead to believe about the general opinion of the higher educated.




Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 07:25:09 PM »
Unfortunately, if there are 2 million refugees in Europe, and only 10% of them are criminal, then that is a increase in the criminal population by 200,000.  Not insignificant.  I think that is a fair estimate for any population, 10% criminal.  This is why the tiny number of police are always overwhelmed.
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Offline SGOS

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2017, 07:38:17 AM »
First its not my survey.  I posted exactly what the survey authors posted.
Yes, I already gave you that out in a previous post.

Its not my fallacy, its yours.  Statistically speaking, you toss out the Don't Care/Don't Answer and work with what you get.  It works both ways.  The 25% does not agree with the No percentage either.
So the excluded middle works only comes into play when it supports your opinion.  Otherwise, it doesn't count?  How convenient for you.

55/20 is more accurate. 
For every 1 who said no, 2.5 said yes. 
Alternatively for every 1 who said no, .81 disagrees with you.

Nice sjw move assigning the *I don't give a shit* portion to the *excluded middle*  ever-the-victim of some overbearing pollster.
Hey, you would still "win" the poll, and you do even without the spin.  But your wasting your time trying to shame me with an sjw label.  I'm already solidly in the *don't give a shit category*, and refuse to be ignored or marginalized on those grounds.  *Not giving a shit* hardly warrants an sjw label.  It just seems to bother you that I'm not in a state joy that the poll indicates the left is out of touch with... Well,  "your view."

I found the poll to be very interesting being as I had been under the impression that the citizenry of the EU was more open to this influx.  Additionally, I felt it important to distinguish the poll was taken BEFORE Trumps EO as to imply his action wasn't an influence on the results.
It's not surprising to me.  Anyone whose culture in inundated by an incompatible culture, is  bound to feel like that.

This is probably the most surprising result:... considering what I have been lead to believe about the general opinion of the higher educated.

I think a better word would be "ironic," but not surprising.  I've been chided by well educated Europeans criticizing US immigration policies and border control as isolationist, protectionist, and culturally xenophobic, and it has always perplexed me, since it's the right of any sovereign nation.  You can't just move into Canada, without meeting the qualifications and providing evidence that you can make a positive contribution.  I started hearing those criticisms from some Europeans 20 years ago, when immigration started to show up as a topic on the US political radar.

I was told by one world traveler long ago that Muslim resentment did exist in Europe, "but no one would ever say that out loud."  (His quote).  I am sympathetic to Europe's situation, however.  I don't get any particular joy in seeing European culture lost even if Europeans might be critical of US sentiments about it's own immigration policies.




Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2017, 12:53:28 PM »
"IN 2013, 990,553 VISAS WERE ISSUED FOR PERMANENT RESIDENCE"

Yes, America is isolationist, racist and should be exterminated.  Please compare Japan Inc.

Or maybe Europeans are assholes.  Maybe the illegal refugees will exterminate them?
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Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2017, 06:26:14 PM »
Here is a link to a good analysis of the Left, over the last three generations ...
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/richard-rorty-liberalism-vietnam-donald-trump-obama

Where the Left made a wrong turn in the 60s (as a cat's paw of the Soviets and Cubans) which has continued down to today, with only Bernie representing the Old Left.  Except it doesn't mention the "controlled opposition" which were the Clintons and Obamas.

The new Marxism is about North-South war, instead of East-West war, but both were led by Marxists.
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Offline SGOS

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2017, 07:42:04 PM »
Here is a link to a good analysis of the Left, over the last three generations ...
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/richard-rorty-liberalism-vietnam-donald-trump-obama

Where the Left made a wrong turn in the 60s (as a cat's paw of the Soviets and Cubans) which has continued down to today, with only Bernie representing the Old Left.  Except it doesn't mention the "controlled opposition" which were the Clintons and Obamas.

He speaks in pretty general terms, and doesn't spend much time on the presidents.  Clinton could have been discussed, and of course Obama was unknown at that time.  But I got the impression he was talking about broader populist agendas, which don't seem to capture the imaginations of presidents or politicians, except that they talk about these agendas during campaigns, and then it's off to the bank, and dinner with their friends.  Politics is pretty corrupt, and seems to come before the national interest.

Every time there is a change in administration, there are articles that attempt to explain why.  In this case, someone got a hold of something that sounded like a prophecy, and pointed to it.  With so many people writing this kind of stuff, someone is bound to say something that turns out to seem right.  But the article was pretty vague about the specifics, I thought.

Offline chill98 (OP)

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2017, 08:54:56 PM »
Yes, I already gave you that out in a previous post.

Aw bs.  You assigned to me a position that belonged to the originators of the poll you glanced over.  Gave me an out?   Your mis-characterization of the data is your folly alone.
So the excluded middle works only comes into play when it supports your opinion.  Otherwise, it doesn't count?  How convenient for you.

Those who don't know excluded themselves.  Not much different from excluding the registered democrats who chose to stay home rather than vote for Clinton or Trump.  Or filling in the blanks of ballots when the voter left it blank.   The undecideds  have chosen to let others decide for them.
Alternatively for every 1 who said no, .81 disagrees with you.

Nuff said. 

55%   YES 
25%  Idunno  = 0  Not a yes, not a no.  Neutral.  Can't say what the correct answer is.
20% NO

Alternatively by using your statistical methodology, it would be just as 'logical' to assign the 25% to the 55% being as they did not agree with the NO position. 

80% think something needs to be done about immigration from muslim countries.

  But there would have been much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
 
Quote from: SGOS
Hey, you would still "win" the poll, and you do even without the spin.  But your wasting your time trying to shame me with an sjw label.  I'm already solidly in the *don't give a shit category*, and refuse to be ignored or marginalized on those grounds.  *Not giving a shit* hardly warrants an sjw label.  It just seems to bother you that I'm not in a state joy that the poll indicates the left is out of touch with... Well,  "your view."

You marginalize yourself opting not to position yourself.
... must be an agnostic....

And no, what bothers me is the upside down world of the leftist logic.
 
Quote from: SGOS
You are breaking the group who is not in agreement with you into two separate categories, making a big deal out of the 25% that neither agree or disagree, and thereby marginalizing them as the excluded middle.  It's a statistical fallacy, because by definition, that 25% do not agree with you, while the other 20% outright oppose you
The fact that some of them may not disagree is functionally irrelevant, because none of them agree with you.
I made no deal out of the 25% who did not position themselves.  You did in a blatant attempt to marginalize the 55% who absolutely have a position; most likely due to an internal opinion all are created equal and the poll itself grates against what you want to believe is just vs the reality of muslim extremism. 

Rather than discussing  the poll on its own merits, it became a personal objection to what you perceive my position to be.

This is standard left/right extremes attack method regardless of whatever issue is being discussed. 

Offline SGOS

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2017, 10:21:23 PM »
What bothers me is the upside down world of the leftist logic.
You just don't like liberals.  You started this thread to claim the left is out touch so you could gloat about your European poll.

Rather than discussing  the poll on its own merits, it became a personal objection to what you perceive my position to be.
Left or right, 45% of Europeans don't agree with you.  But you did well, you got a 55%.  That's better than half.    Everyone is impressed.  Go give yourself a pat on the back.

Online Shiranu

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2017, 11:38:48 PM »


So until just a few years ago, being against gays was okay because the majority agreed with it?
"Too curious flower, watching us pass, met death; Our hungry donkey." - Basho

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." - Mahatma Gandhi

Offline pr126

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2017, 12:06:29 AM »
Trigger Warning!

Is the left losing it?

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2017, 12:41:00 AM »
Trigger Warning!

Is the left losing it?

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

That one, by P J Watson, was pretty funny.  Any time a Brit says something, my ear says it's funny.  He reminds me of Mauricio, very plugged into media.

Left anarchists and Left authoritarians have always been bad guys.  Only the Left moderates like FDR were worth anything, and only in ... moderation.  The sans-cullotes are still looking for their free bread and circuses.
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Offline Baruch

Re: How out of touch is the left?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2017, 12:44:47 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

So until just a few years ago, being against gays was okay because the majority agreed with it?

I don't agree with judging people in general, it is bigotry.  Particularly judging people long dead, who can't defend themselves by cutting their opposition a new a-hole.  I have never been against gay marriage, so I didn't have a "come to Jesus" moment over that.  I would never keep anyone in chattel slavery (wage and debt slavery are even harder to minimize).  If I were in the mood to condemn people, there would be plenty of targets.
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