Author Topic: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?  (Read 571 times)

Offline Baruch (OP)

Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« on: February 05, 2017, 02:29:00 PM »
Continuing from another section ... where this doesn't belong ...

What do you mean by nothing, by travel, by fast, by light?

I will start with "what is a photon" ... or "what is light"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon ... neither wave nor particle, classically modeled incorrectly by EM theory.  At lower energy the wave like aspect dominates ... at higher energy the particle aspect dominates.  This is because our view of things is ... pragmatic, not "truth".  Also a photon is more particle like in small scale situations, and more wave like in large scale situations.  My grandfather'r radio transmitter was at 800 Kilocycles AM.  The wavelength at that low frequency (low energy) is about 374 meters, his transmitting antenna had to be half that length (half dipole) or 187 meters or 560 feet tall.  That is one big, diffuse particle!

The quantum vacuum isn't empty, so what do yo mean by nothing?  Something imaginary?

By travel, there is both group velocity and phase velocity  ... it is group velocity that is limited, that is the speed at which modulation can travel ... which isn't greater than C ... in whatever units you care to define that.  Speed isn't the same as velocity.  Fast is relative .. for sub C velocity, this is significant.  But with light in a vacuum (in matter it is less fast hence index of refraction) comparisons don't mean what we think they mean, hence Special Theory of Relativity.  Speed not being the same as velocity (because space-time connection) is further clarified in the General Theory of Relativity.

Travel is ... cause/effect propagation (aka group velocity) or is it timeless consequence (quantum entanglement)?  Basically temporal and non-temporal logic in math terms.  They are different, that is why quantum entanglement can't be used for faster-than-light signaling.  All tests to prove any variability of C (speed) in vacuo has failed (this is the consequence of it being a dimensionless quantity ... in space-time).  The velocity does change .. gravitational lensing etc.  In fact we can choose our units of distance and time, such that C= 1.0.

Edit  .. a half dipole antenna is 1/4 wave length, so an antenna 280 feet tall ;-)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 08:34:30 PM by Baruch »
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Online aitm

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2017, 04:08:32 PM »
I have a pretty stout bow.....
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2017, 04:13:33 PM »
I have a pretty stout bow.....

Zeno of Elea believes that your arrow can never move thru the air.  This is what happens with logic is allowed to trump physics.  That is one of his paradoxes, not just Achilles vs the Tortoise.
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Online aitm

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2017, 04:15:36 PM »
But i also have a special arrow. It simply stays put and the world revolves "around" it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2017, 08:33:27 PM »
But i also have a special arrow. It simply stays put and the world revolves "around" it.

Republican or female or both?  Or Catholic ... the Earth spins because the Pope stands still, and all those cardinals are necessary to make the Earth spin around him ;-)
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Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2017, 11:44:34 PM »
the extra terrestrials travel in technology that moves faster than light, yes.

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2017, 02:25:04 AM »
Nothing travels faster within the observable Universe than a photon in vacuum and the speed of it is precisely 299 792 458 metres per
second. Photons are capable of this because they have zero rest mass. However if they did not have it they would tend to infinite mass
as they approached c. Because the faster that an object travels relative to c then the more its mass increases. Now infinite mass would
be greater than all of the mass in the entire Universe. And so is impossible for any object to travel at c. But because photons have zero
rest mass they can travel through time at c but without experiencing it. Second reason why nothing travels faster within the observable
Universe than a photon in vacuum is because time would stop and start going backwards. This is physically impossible because it would
violate the law of cause and effect so that any effect would always come before its cause rather than after it. The Universe is expanding
faster than c but this is not a violation of Special Relativity. This only applies to objects within the Universe but not the Universe as such
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN

Offline SGOS

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2017, 09:50:05 AM »
the extra terrestrials travel in technology that moves faster than light, yes.

This can be proven through logic, since we know they wouldn't have gotten here otherwise.

Offline Atheon

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 10:45:13 AM »
The Millennium Falcon. She's the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. She made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline Sal1981

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2017, 08:31:50 AM »
Large enough space between two points can expand faster than what a photon is able to travel, but is that "traveling"?
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2017, 09:14:02 AM »
The Millennium Falcon. She's the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. She made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.

A parsec is a unit of distance not velocity. Making the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs wasn't so much a conformation of the Falcon's speed as Han's navigational skills.

The Kessel Run
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 02:21:14 AM »
Expansion of the universe itself from dark energy?  No photon, traveling at lightspeed will ever catch up to the very edge of the universe (ignoring the concept of an "edge").
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 09:51:37 AM »
Expansion of the universe itself from dark energy?  No photon, traveling at lightspeed will ever catch up to the very edge of the universe (ignoring the concept of an "edge").

Perhaps .. dark energy and dark matter are extrapolations ... not experimental confirmations.  And it is still pretty mysterious, the expansion at all (from the Big Bang) since by odds, it should have collapsed into a black hole, very early.  Having extra energy (like explosion) actually increases the gravity, it works against you.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 05:31:35 AM »
Perhaps .. dark energy and dark matter are extrapolations ... not experimental confirmations.  And it is still pretty mysterious, the expansion at all (from the Big Bang) since by odds, it should have collapsed into a black hole, very early.  Having extra energy (like explosion) actually increases the gravity, it works against you.

Expansion does not increase gravity.  Only mass causes gravity.  Not to go too far, but gravity logically only stays constant in a single body of any size.  With multiple masses, it gets real complicated.  And I'll bet I know what comes next in the argument...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Do you think anything can travel faster than a photon?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 07:17:20 AM »
Expansion does not increase gravity.  Only mass causes gravity.  Not to go too far, but gravity logically only stays constant in a single body of any size.  With multiple masses, it gets real complicated.  And I'll bet I know what comes next in the argument...

Misreading.  Explosion takes energy, but energy is mass.  We don't disagree.  You prophetic abilities fail.  I am not randomly typing.
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