Author Topic: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law  (Read 6990 times)

Offline SilentFutility

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2013, 12:22:43 PM »
Quote from: "Colanth"
If you want a divorce that will be recognized by the society you're living in (a Muslim society in this case) you go to a religious court.  The British courts can't grant divorces that are recognized by the Muslim community.  Yet.  If and when the Muslim community decides to become part of British society, that will change
A failure of the muslim community to recognise british law should not be responded to with allowing them to dictate their own.

Quote from: "Colanth"
In this case it's not circumventing any law.  The woman can still go to the British court and get a divorce, but to be recognized as a divorced woman by Muslim society, she has to get a religious divorce.
I am familiar with the concept. They still shouldn't have their own religious courts because as a society they fail to recognise the legitimacy of british courts. I understand that their community doesn't always recognise the legitimacy of british courts, and allowing them to have an alternative is making it worse.

Quote from: "Colanth"
If you grant "marriage" to couples, and claim (to them) to be the only authority able to dissolve those "marriages", no one is going to say anything.  If they want your kind of marriage they have to go to you.  If they want a legally binding marriage they have to go to the state.  That's the situation here - these women don't care whether the British government recognizes their marriage or divorce, all they care is whether their society, Muslim society, recognizes them.
Exactly, they don't care about what a british court might have to say on the matter. If we continue to give them another option, they will continue to not care about THE court system.
Granting marriages was a poor example, but sharia courts do not just give advice, they actively press people to follow the rulings given out, and are even reported to use violence and intimidation to achieve this. They settle monetary disputes, family feuds etc. If we continue to actively provide an avenue for doing all of this outside of the british legal system they're going to continue to be used to doing so.

If the british legal system was the only avenue through which to pursue these matters, then they'd have to live with it.

Quote from: "Colanth"
How is it flouting anything?  A woman divorced in a Sharia court is still legally married according to the law - unless she's obtained a legal divorce.  A Sharia divorce in England has as much legal weight as 2 5 year olds declaring themselves "married" when they play house.  But to them it matters.
Sharia courts don't just decide whether or not a woman can or can't divorce in the eyes of god though. They also decide what to do about other crimes reported to them, such as assaults resulting from a family feud, monetary disputes etc. etc. People have even been advised to break UK law by judges in sharia courts. Sharia law is in itself opposed to the UK legal system AND basic European Human Rights.

Quote from: "Colanth"
You deal with them by education, not by making laws that will just be ignored.
When laws are ignored people are punished. That's how laws work.
I agree that this isn't going to make the muslim community integrate, this is about not giving them special treatment and allowing them to get away with things nobody should be doing.

What specific system of education would you propose?

Quote from: "Colanth"
Which one?  Women being able to be divorced in the eyes of their community?  Something that has nothing to do with the law?  How is that a problem?
Intimidation, violence, oppression of women, sharia courts ignoring physical abuse of female victims and actively discouraging them from going to the UK authorities, and many other reported cases of inhumane treatment, predominantly towards women.

Quote from: "Colanth"
The problem is people being attacked or killed for not being Muslim but coming into Muslim neighborhoods - and that has nothing to do with Sharia courts.
That's just another problem, not *the* problem.  

Quote from: "Colanth"
That should be dealt with the same way everything else in this world should be dealt with - by totally ignoring the religious aspect.  Assault and murder are illegal.  It makes no difference whether you assault someone for the hell of it, because you don't like him or because he's an infidel in a Muslim neighborhood - you go to prison for assault.
Actually UK law makes a distinction for racially and religiously motivated assaults and homicides, but anyway, these things are illegal, agreed.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Religious freedom means the freedom to believe what you want, not the freedom to do what you want.  If your religion requires you to do something that's illegal, your religion can't be practiced where that act is illegal.  (At least, not that part of your religion.)
Theoretically, sure. However, we all know that simply making bad things illegal doesn't stop people doing them, especially not when people are allowed safe havens in which to partake in illegal behaviour, such as intimidating people who want to report assaults to the police etc.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Or is England about to allow Thuggees the freedom to send sacrifices to Kali?
Hopefully not.

Quote from: "Colanth"
How is it circumventing anything?  To be legally divorced, a Muslim woman has to go to a British court (or however divorce is done there).  To get a religious divorce - the State has no business telling Islam what constitutes an Islamic divorce.
No, it doesn't, correct. However, the state can reasonably expected not to legitimise another legal system and allow other courts to pass judgement on things. No, their rulings don't have legal finality, but for women who speak no english who go there and are forced to sit there with their husbands who are abusing them, where the judge is actively trying to keep them together and stop it from becoming a legal matter, aren't exactly being given much of an option to free themselves from a bad situation.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Because you're conflating two totally unconnected things.

The British legal system has no business telling Islam what constitutes an Islamic marriage or an Islamic divorce.
Quote from: "Colanth"
That has nothing to do with people not being prosecuted for violating British law.

Getting "married" in some sham religious mumbo-jumbo isn't a violation of the law, it's play time.  If you want a legally recognized marriage you still have to get one the way the government says you have to.  (Which is a completely different thread - should the government be involved in marriage at all?)  If a Muslim woman goes to the courts and obtains a divorce, she's legally divorced.  Whether the Sharia court recognizes that fact or not is irrelevant - she's divorced.  But only legally, not according to the rules of Islam.  If that matters to her (and here's where religious freedom enters), she has to apply to a Sharia court for a divorce.  The government should not be able to grant religious divorces.
I'm not saying that having a religious ceremony is violating the law. I'm saying that calling yourself a court and doing many of the other morally questionable things that sharia courts are known to do should be violating the law.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Again - if you want a divorce recognized by the Muslim community, you get one from a Sharia court.  That has absolutely nothing to do with British law.  If you haven't obtained a British divorce you're still legally married.  But the Islamic divorce is important to those who believe it is.  (And the last time I looked, Britain guarantees freedom of belief.)  It does nothing legally, but it's important to the person getting it.  Like the color of her nails or the style of her shoes.
Yes, but sharia courts are known to not be operated as plain religious ceremonies.
People are free to believe what they want.
People are free to preach what they want in the UK- unless they are inciting violence or encouraging other illegal behaviour, such as physical abuse of women, and intimidating victims of crime so that they don't go to the police.

Quote from: "Colanth"
No one said "in law" - other than "in Islamic law".  Break a British law and you face trial in a British court.  You want a legal right, you apply to the British government.
"Why should any British court recognise a fatwa?

In 1996, Parliament passed the Arbitration Act setting out rules under which parties in a dispute have the right to go to an impartial tribunal to get justice without expensive litigation. Muslims lawyers interpreted this as meaning that sharia courts could act as arbitration panels under the Act, they began in 2007, and their decisions are legally binding."
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Under some interpretations of the law, fatwas issued by sharia courts are legally recognised.

Secondly, women are actively intimidated into going through these courts instead of UK ones.

Quote from: "Colanth"
But if you want to make believe that you're "married" in the eyes of Allah, or that you're divorced in his eyes, you go to a Sharia court.  I'm not advocating writing Sharia into the legal system, just letting people who want to play in that sandbox the right to play there.  They still go to time out if they hit their friends.
Except that they don't go to time out if they hit their friends, because sharia courts often do their utmost to keep matters out of the UK court system, even ones that should be there such as physical abuse.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Regardless, if the court grants her the divorce, but she hasn't gotten one from a Sharia court, her society, her friends and family, will have nothing to do with her.  She's a non-person to them.  If the Sharia court grants her a divorce it's a different situation for her.
That's a reason why muslims want them, not a reason why we should allow them to have them.


Quote from: "Colanth"
No one said anything about circumventing anything.
They do though. Read up on what actually goes on in them.

Quote from: "Colanth"
No one (here, at my desk) is advocating the imposition of Sharia law.  You're advocating closing down all Sharia courts.  Why?  They don't hurt anything.
They don't hurt anything?!
I think not:
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They may be play-acting, but it is with real consequences.

Quote from: "Colanth"
The problem is the British legal system, which refuses to tell the people that, regardless of what a Sharia court finds, the law of the country, the secular law, will be upheld.  They can play in Sharia courts all they like, but they can't harass people for being on the wrong street.  They can't force a woman to not seek a LEGAL divorce if she wants one.  And an "honor killing" will be treated as just what it is - premeditated murder with no justification.  The only alternative to that is to plead that, as a Muslim, one isn't responsible for his actions.  And I think the Imams would make short shrift of that claim (and of the claimant).
Read the link I posted about the Arbitration Act and the legal framework within which sharia courts claim to operate.

Quote from: "Colanth"
I didn't say "subject to", I said "avail themselves of".  MANY Muslim women will not seek a divorce in a British court, they want a divorce in a Sharia court.  The British court is available to them, but no one can force them to use it.
That doesn't mean they should be given the other option.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Sharia courts settle matters with Islamic legal finality, not British legal finality.  And that's as it should be.  Whether you're accepted as a member of the Muslim community shouldn't be subject to British courts, but to Sharia courts.
Again, Arbitration Act, they are claiming to pass legal judgement, and they could probably defend their position as being able to do so currently.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Please stop putting words into my mouth and please stop conflating "allowing" with "forcing"
I'm not putting words into your mouth.
Secondly, while you still fundamentally disagree with what I'm trying to say, you are misunderstanding.

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2013, 11:09:51 PM »
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "Colanth"
If you want a divorce that will be recognized by the society you're living in (a Muslim society in this case) you go to a religious court.  The British courts can't grant divorces that are recognized by the Muslim community.  Yet.  If and when the Muslim community decides to become part of British society, that will change
A failure of the muslim community to recognise british law should not be responded to with allowing them to dictate their own.
It's no more a failure to recognize British law than is a Roman Catholic British couple's refusal to get a legal divorce, even though British law allows divorce.  Government should never get involved in religion.  If a religion allows or forbids certain things to its followers, the government should leave that strictly alone unless something in it violates the law.  Thuggees can't murder, even though their religion says they should.  A religion that requires you to use heroin can't supersede the law that says you can't.  But a religious law that says that you can't go out in public without a man accompanying you?  If you want to go along with that, who cares?

I don't see what the big fuss is about - as long as religion is totally ignored when it comes to enforcing actual laws.  Whether that's harassing someone for coming into your neighborhood or throwing a baby on a fire makes no difference.  If the reason is a religious one, it's legally irrelevant.  You committed the act and if your only defense is religious, you're guilty.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Offline Plu

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2013, 02:23:39 AM »
Quote
If a religion allows or forbids certain things to its followers, the government should leave that strictly alone unless something in it violates the law.

The problem arises when what it does is violating the law, but the system itself covers that up by illegaly intimidating the people coming there into not going to the actual authorities, so that it can be dealt with.

Generally speaking when you have an organisation like that, the whole organisation is put on trial in the real court system. I'd say they have more than enough evidence of illegal activity within the sharia courts to declare them a criminal organisation.
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Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2013, 11:55:10 AM »
Quote from: "Plu"
Quote
If a religion allows or forbids certain things to its followers, the government should leave that strictly alone unless something in it violates the law.

The problem arises when what it does is violating the law, but the system itself covers that up by illegaly intimidating the people coming there into not going to the actual authorities, so that it can be dealt with.

Generally speaking when you have an organisation like that, the whole organisation is put on trial in the real court system. I'd say they have more than enough evidence of illegal activity within the sharia courts to declare them a criminal organisation.
It's a glorified semi-legal version of what criminal immigrant groups do in the United States.  In the early 1900's Italian and Chinese citizens rarely sought the protection of the courts, "preferring" to either pay protection to the mob or simply remain silent for fear of reprisal.  You still see it today with Eastern European groups.  This is the same thing under the guise of "cultural courts".  The Muslim leaders who want to establish such courts are nothing more than dressed up Prohibition-Era gangsters terrorizing their own communities for their personal gain, only with the approval of the state.


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Offline Solitary

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2013, 12:50:25 PM »
When I was in Turkey many years ago, I witnessed a girl of royalty and her common man stoned to death for loving each other which was forbidden at the time under Sharia Law. I also witnessed a man get his head lopped off three feet in front of me for stealing a military rifle. Sharia Law is as Draconian as it gets.      :evil:    :cry:    Bill
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2013, 02:05:23 PM »
Quote from: "FlatEarth1024"
Quote from: "Plu"
Quote
If a religion allows or forbids certain things to its followers, the government should leave that strictly alone unless something in it violates the law.

The problem arises when what it does is violating the law, but the system itself covers that up by illegaly intimidating the people coming there into not going to the actual authorities, so that it can be dealt with.

Generally speaking when you have an organisation like that, the whole organisation is put on trial in the real court system. I'd say they have more than enough evidence of illegal activity within the sharia courts to declare them a criminal organisation.
It's a glorified semi-legal version of what criminal immigrant groups do in the United States.  In the early 1900's Italian and Chinese citizens rarely sought the protection of the courts, "preferring" to either pay protection to the mob or simply remain silent for fear of reprisal.  You still see it today with Eastern European groups.  This is the same thing under the guise of "cultural courts".  The Muslim leaders who want to establish such courts are nothing more than dressed up Prohibition-Era gangsters terrorizing their own communities for their personal gain, only with the approval of the state.

The Muslims are trying to do it one more step than the Italians or Chinese, they're trying to get their Sharia law accept by the host country. And that's dangerous. I would hope that the Europeans are not going to fall for that poison.

Offline SilentFutility

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2013, 04:45:24 PM »
All of this, basically, but adding the point that the UK has an act that recognises two parties' right to go to an alternate tribunal to the courts to settle some disputes. This was intended to prevent people having to always go to court and pay expensive court costs, but it gives religious courts legitimacy and allows them to claim their rulings on disputes as legal rulings under the arbitration act. It wouldn't hold any weight if was superceded by a proper court, but still. They're not just play-acting, and we're recognising them as legal, alternative tirbunals.

Offline Solitary

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2013, 05:20:34 PM »
You are correct!  :oops: Sorry about that! The Princess and her boyfriend happen in Saudi Arabia, but the soldier getting his head loped off was in Turkey under military law at the time. This was in the late 50's or early 60's. Getting old is a bitch. Don't do it.  :Hangman:  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline Solitary

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2013, 05:46:24 PM »
Thanks! The guy in the army, from what we could understand, stole a military rifle. I thought they would just take off his hand. I worked in an emergency ward before this and thought I has seen everything---but this was the first time I threw up, the second was when I found out my best friend killed his wife in Florida and was looking for me in Illinois . He actually got away with murder because the Detectives and courts in Florida are stupid. He told them she was having an affair. Not me---honest.  [-(   Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2013, 09:06:05 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
See, this is a very disoriented sense of history and also a very disoriented vision of present. First of all Ottoman empire and Republic of Turkiye two different states. I also wonder what do you guys get from the word 'Turk'. Do you have any idea how many Turkish nations, tribes out there? How many Turkish states are there in the history?
I'll just give you something to think about, Shoe (along these same lines).  First, most Americans have no idea what Homer's Iliad is about.  Most of those who have some idea think it's about the Trojan war (which it is).  But ... ask most of them where it took place and they'll tell you it was in Greece.  Most Americans don't have a very good knowledge of geography.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2013, 11:33:55 PM »
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
See, this is a very disoriented sense of history and also a very disoriented vision of present. First of all Ottoman empire and Republic of Turkiye two different states. I also wonder what do you guys get from the word 'Turk'. Do you have any idea how many Turkish nations, tribes out there? How many Turkish states are there in the history?
I'll just give you something to think about, Shoe (along these same lines).  First, most Americans have no idea what Homer's Iliad is about.  Most of those who have some idea think it's about the Trojan war (which it is).  But ... ask most of them where it took place and they'll tell you it was in Greece.  Most Americans don't have a very good knowledge of geography.

Duh. Obviously it happened in 'Murica, cause that's the only place interesting things happened.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2013, 08:55:07 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
PS My geography is not very good either. But I am not sure what you meant by 'very good' though.
You're aware that Troy was in Turkey, right?  It was a port, just south of the Dardanelles in northwest Anatolia.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 11:28:57 PM »
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
PS My geography is not very good either. But I am not sure what you meant by 'very good' though.
You're aware that Troy was in Turkey, right?  It was a port, just south of the Dardanelles in northwest Anatolia.

I didn't mean it that way. Just by obligation related to my field, I don't think I am a good example in this context. But for the record, I had to read Homer in high school as a part of the general curriculum in the beginning of 90s. (My parents generations had more) I don't know if it is mandatory right now. We also had to study the whole subject in univ in art history department as a student which is totally useless as hard knowledge, but just as interpretation which you cannot get without studying the whole thing.
That's called "getting educated" - something many Americans spend 4 years in college NOT doing.  In fact, at the secondary education level here, it's a badge of honor in some segments of our society, to not learn anything.  Functional illiteracy is seen as a good thing.

It's why even though we're one of the countries with a good opportunity for education, we regularly score WAY down on international comparisons.

Quote
if children -or adults doesn't matter- hear about it just BECAUSE of a Hollywood movie, I cannot blame those Americans -or any other people- for thinking that Troya is in Greece or even in Europe.
I blame them for not having received an education when one was offered to them.  The Iliad is one of the basic pieces of Western literature.

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An extra example. After Turkiye was founded there has been a strong heavy Dressing Revolution in 25th of October 1925. Fes has not been used since. 85 years? I can show you movies showing scenes from the region showing people wearing fes. While it is funny from an angle, I really would not like to write about the specific questions I had to answer in my 36 years of life about camels -there are no camels in Anatolia-climate here, why we dress like 'normal people', that my father has one wife but no concubines, we don't eat sheep except special dishes after I being accused of 'lying'.
That could all be due to the fact that modern Turkish society is pretty much European.  (I'm cheating - I actually know quite a few Turks in person.  Most Americans, from what I've seen, wouldn't be "bothered" to get to know any - Turks are all Muslim terrorists, aren't they?)

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Now you are going to say that this is trivial because we are talking about fiction, just movies and cable.
Not I.  If a country's foreign policy is based on the knowledge the people running the government got from fiction (and fiction that's not even close to reality), it's not trivial.

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So it is not simple geography knowledge or where was an ancient city located.
But if one doesn't even know that, it points to a larger problem.

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You can't find nothing but humiliation of non Western cultures of the world in American culture. I would use the world 'popular' to specify, but I am not sure if there is another left from where I stand.
It's not only humiliation, it's denigration.  Tell most Americans about some of the inventions that came from other societies and they'll call you a liar.  (Okay, most Americans will accept that our numerals are from Arab civilization, but are they aware that the Arabs got the idea from India?)

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Does American culture only do that to 'foreigners'. NO. It treats its own the same way. I assure you, there isn't that much of a label, classification of peoples and others in any other culture. We could jump from here to the bullying issue in high schools. I know that you are completely convinced that this issue must be far worse at this side of the world
Actually, I don't think I've heard of school bullying being a problem in most other countries.

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Think about the general level of ignorance you guys complain about your people here rightfully and this created identity come together in a created domestic/international paranoia, a created conspiracy culture without an end for a moment please Colanth and hand him a weapon. (By 'weapon', I mean every kind of weaponry from army scale to the individual scale 'protection'.) And pump this EGO constantly with 'you are the best, right and true', you are the 'freedom fighter, world police' bullshit nationalism with a 'you are in the best place ever in this world' bullshit from every channel available, provide them with huge 'rights' and countless choices to buy-have-live on everything, huge houses to live in and huge cars to drive.

Now, please be sincere and tell me what you have.
I'll tell you by repeating a comment I heard many times in 2003, when people were reminded that we invaded another sovereign nation - "What good is being an American if you can't invade wherever you want?"  Gunboat diplomacy was supposed to be over by WWI - evidently "gunboat thinking" hasn't ended yet.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2013, 10:37:46 PM »
Quote from: "Colanth"
I'll tell you by repeating a comment I heard many times in 2003, when people were reminded that we invaded another sovereign nation - "What good is being an American if you can't invade wherever you want?"  Gunboat diplomacy was supposed to be over by WWI - evidently "gunboat thinking" hasn't ended yet.
May I intrude on the bash-Americafest this thread has turned into to ask you for a few citations for this quote?  Not yokels on the street either, please.  If you are going to refer to quotes such as these as some semi-official "diplomacy", please cite some exact quotations from the makers of foreign policy please.


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Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2013, 06:54:17 PM »
Quote from: "FlatEarth1024"
Quote from: "Colanth"
I'll tell you by repeating a comment I heard many times in 2003, when people were reminded that we invaded another sovereign nation - "What good is being an American if you can't invade wherever you want?"  Gunboat diplomacy was supposed to be over by WWI - evidently "gunboat thinking" hasn't ended yet.
May I intrude on the bash-Americafest this thread has turned into to ask you for a few citations for this quote?  Not yokels on the street either, please.  If you are going to refer to quotes such as these as some semi-official "diplomacy", please cite some exact quotations from the makers of foreign policy please.
Read what I wrote - "a comment I heard many times".  Nowhere did I even allude to a hint that this is any kind of policy - it's the opinion of too many "yokels on the street".

And I'm not some foreign "American basher" - I was born here and lived here my entire life, except for some of the time spent in the armed forces.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

 

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