Author Topic: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law  (Read 6746 times)

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 10:30:05 AM »
Texas gets hit by tornadoes regularly as well. Oklahoma just gets the headlines because of their many fags bringing gods wrath.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline SilentFutility

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 11:01:58 AM »
Quote from: "Jmpty"
In the US, some idiot lawmakers have proposed and passed bans on Sharia law. What a waste of time and money. How is anyone going to "impose" Sharia in a country that already has rule of law? Stupid.
We thought that in the UK, and hey-ho, we have sharia courts now.

The problem is that while their rulings are not legally binding, they are often fully accepted within the conservative muslim community. They do things like rule that women are not allowed to divorce their husbands, and apply massive, huge social pressure on them not to go to a UK court to file a divorce (where they might actually be treated like a human being), flouting the rulings of a sharia court could lead to being disowned by the community/your family and thinking that you're going to hell, people are also sometimes subjected to threats of physical harm or even death for disobeying sharia court rulings. Often the rulings given by sharia courts are behind closed doors, ignore basic UK/EU human rights and sometimes they even advise illegal behaviour.

So, sharia law and sharia courts can absolutely get out of hand if they are not legislated against and they are able to be scrutinised properly by the authorities, which is what has happened in the UK. They are a law unto themselves in many cases.

You think it cannot be imposed because the percentage of the US's population that identifies as muslim is a tiny fraction.

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 11:53:17 AM »
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "Jmpty"
In the US, some idiot lawmakers have proposed and passed bans on Sharia law. What a waste of time and money. How is anyone going to "impose" Sharia in a country that already has rule of law? Stupid.
We thought that in the UK, and hey-ho, we have sharia courts now.

The problem is that while their rulings are not legally binding, they are often fully accepted within the conservative muslim community. They do things like rule that women are not allowed to divorce their husbands, and apply massive, huge social pressure on them not to go to a UK court to file a divorce (where they might actually be treated like a human being), flouting the rulings of a sharia court could lead to being disowned by the community/your family and thinking that you're going to hell, people are also sometimes subjected to threats of physical harm or even death for disobeying sharia court rulings. Often the rulings given by sharia courts are behind closed doors, ignore basic UK/EU human rights and sometimes they even advise illegal behaviour.

So, sharia law and sharia courts can absolutely get out of hand if they are not legislated against and they are able to be scrutinised properly by the authorities, which is what has happened in the UK. They are a law unto themselves in many cases.

You think it cannot be imposed because the percentage of the US's population that identifies as muslim is a tiny fraction.

Sounds just like the Catholic church, or the Mormons, or Scientology, or..........
???  ??

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 02:39:06 PM »
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "Jmpty"
In the US, some idiot lawmakers have proposed and passed bans on Sharia law. What a waste of time and money. How is anyone going to "impose" Sharia in a country that already has rule of law? Stupid.
We thought that in the UK, and hey-ho, we have sharia courts now.

The problem is that while their rulings are not legally binding, they are often fully accepted within the conservative muslim community. They do things like rule that women are not allowed to divorce their husbands, and apply massive, huge social pressure on them not to go to a UK court to file a divorce (where they might actually be treated like a human being), flouting the rulings of a sharia court could lead to being disowned by the community/your family and thinking that you're going to hell, people are also sometimes subjected to threats of physical harm or even death for disobeying sharia court rulings. Often the rulings given by sharia courts are behind closed doors, ignore basic UK/EU human rights and sometimes they even advise illegal behaviour.
And you think that by passing laws that make this sort of thing illegal, not just legally ignored, Sharia courts will stop existing, and women won't be shunned by their families for seeking divorces?

That's a naive viewpoint, at best.  It will take a few generations of no Sharia court before some people will even start thinking that women have the right to divorce their husbands.  There are still Christians in Western society who don't accept that concept, and Christianity hasn't been the law in centuries.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Offline SilentFutility

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 02:53:16 PM »
Quote from: "Jmpty"
How is anyone going to "impose" Sharia in a country that already has rule of law? Stupid.
Quote from: "Jmpty"
Sounds just like the Catholic church, or the Mormons, or Scientology, or..........
Okay.

You asked how, I explained how.

Quote from: "Colanth"
And you think that by passing laws that make this sort of thing illegal, not just legally ignored, Sharia courts will stop existing, and women won't be shunned by their families for seeking divorces?

That's a naive viewpoint, at best.  It will take a few generations of no Sharia court before some people will even start thinking that women have the right to divorce their husbands.  There are still Christians in Western society who don't accept that concept, and Christianity hasn't been the law in centuries.
No, I don't, but at the very least it leaves people open to proecution for their crimes rather than allowing it.
Making theft illegal doesn't stop it either, this doesn't mean that lawmakers are naive for making it illegal.
Also, just because I think something should be accounted for in legislation, doesn't mean that I think that's all that should be done about it.

I don't feel that taking a step towards a solution is naive just because it doesn't immediately and completely solve what is a significant social problem spanning generations. If everyone took that attitude to domestic policy making then no long-term problems would ever get solved. I'm not saying that that is your attitude, but it is food for thought. Obviously problems like this won't go away overnight, so what steps can we take to solve them? One step forwards is better than none.

All of this was a response to "how can sharia courts impose sharia law on a country where there is rule of law?" anyway. The UK has rule of law, sharia courts are causing problems there. I gave an example that answers the question.

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 02:58:04 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
???  ??

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 03:01:09 PM »
This sort of thing will only end when religion ends.
???  ??

Offline SilentFutility

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 03:10:50 PM »
Quote from: "Jmpty"
This sort of thing will only end when religion ends.
Maybe so, but we can stop the symptoms of extreme religious belief being a problem by coming up with sensible solutions towards dealing with them.

I'm not necessarily even saying that sharia courts should be banned. I'm saying that if problems like this are left undealt with they get worse, and that they do need to be dealt with. There are many possible solutions but fundamentally, making people accountable to the laws of the land they have immigrated to, or their ancestors have immigrated to should be a priority. Nobody should be immune from justice.

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 06:39:38 PM »
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "Jmpty"
How is anyone going to "impose" Sharia in a country that already has rule of law? Stupid.
Quote from: "Jmpty"
Sounds just like the Catholic church, or the Mormons, or Scientology, or..........
Okay.

You asked how, I explained how.

Quote from: "Colanth"
And you think that by passing laws that make this sort of thing illegal, not just legally ignored, Sharia courts will stop existing, and women won't be shunned by their families for seeking divorces?

That's a naive viewpoint, at best.  It will take a few generations of no Sharia court before some people will even start thinking that women have the right to divorce their husbands.  There are still Christians in Western society who don't accept that concept, and Christianity hasn't been the law in centuries.
No, I don't, but at the very least it leaves people open to proecution for their crimes rather than allowing it.
Making theft illegal doesn't stop it either, this doesn't mean that lawmakers are naive for making it illegal.
Also, just because I think something should be accounted for in legislation, doesn't mean that I think that's all that should be done about it.

I don't feel that taking a step towards a solution is naive just because it doesn't immediately and completely solve what is a significant social problem spanning generations.
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.

Doing away with Sharia law won't keep a man from refusing to divorce his wife.  Or keep her family from shunning her if she gets divorced.  Only educating the entire population will do that - and that takes generations.

Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.

Quote
All of this was a response to "how can sharia courts impose sharia law on a country where there is rule of law?" anyway. The UK has rule of law, sharia courts are causing problems there.
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.

Muslims are free, in the UK, to avail themselves of the UK justice system.  Many of them won't, whether you allow Sharia courts or not.  That's the problem.  They want to live in the UK, but under the laws of the country they came from.  They refuse to assimilate.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 06:44:45 PM »
Quote from: "Colanth"

Muslims are free, in the UK, to avail themselves of the UK justice system.  Many of them won't, whether you allow Sharia courts or not.  That's the problem.  They want to live in the UK, but under the laws of the country they came from.  They refuse to assimilate.

They haven't assimilated anywhere, and they won't. This is true even in the US, although there are such a minority that they are almost invisible, accounting for about 1% of the population.

Offline Plu

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 01:57:09 AM »
Quote
Doing away with Sharia law won't keep a man from refusing to divorce his wife.

Since when does the man's opinion have anything to do with whether or not his wife can divorce him? The family shunning her is one thing (it should teach her that they are fucking idiots and she should probably never deal with them again; but she probably won't, but at least it's her own fault) but the court should still be able to divorce her even if her husband doesn't want to.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Plu

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 07:23:36 AM »
To be honest, if she refuses to leave because she is scared of life and being alone, I consider that to be her own problem.

The goal is to give options. They have the option. The rest is up to them.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline SilentFutility

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2013, 02:59:19 PM »
Quote from: "Colanth"
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.
Sharia courts are solutions to nothing. If you have a money dispute, you go to small claims court. If you want a divorce, you file for divorce, etc. By deliberately allowing for sharia courts in law and going out of our way to accommodate them, we are not only passively allowing them to happen, we are actively sending out the message that people can circumvent UK law and aren't accountable to it. If I set up my own court and gave out my rulings I'd likely be shut down at the very least, or worse face charges. Why does someone else get the right to flout the UK court system and set up their own? I'll tell you why, it's because everyone is scared to criticise islam for fear of being labelled a bigot, or more commonly a "racist" in England, despite islam not being a race, but I digress.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Doing away with Sharia law won't keep a man from refusing to divorce his wife.  Or keep her family from shunning her if she gets divorced.  Only educating the entire population will do that - and that takes generations.
If a woman goes to a UK court and files for divorce and the man refuses, then the dispute can be settled fairly and legally, and if the woman has valid reasons for divorce then she can. If I wanted to leave my wife but thought I'd get fucked over by the UK court system, I wouldn't have the option of going to a special court that I know will rule in my favour.

I didn't say removing the courts would stop all problems withing the muslim community. They are a problem in themselves, and they need to be dealt with. Just because there are other problems doesn't mean this one shouldn't be solved.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.
The option to circumvent the UK court system should not exist just because you believe in a magic man in the sky. Other UK citizens of other creeds are not granted this right.

Quote from: "Colanth"
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.
Exactly, so why not stop bending over backwards to allow illegitimate courts pass judgement, whilst simultaneously sending out the message that imposing sharia is a-okay?

Quote from: "Colanth"
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.
Sharia courts are solutions to nothing. If you have a money dispute, you go to small claims court. If you want a divorce, you file for divorce, etc. By deliberately allowing for sharia courts in law and going out of our way to accommodate them, we are not only passively allowing them to happen, we are actively sending out the message that people can circumvent UK law and aren't accountable to it. If I set up my own court and gave out my rulings I'd likely be shut down at the very least, or worse face charges.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Doing away with Sharia law won't keep a man from refusing to divorce his wife.  Or keep her family from shunning her if she gets divorced.  Only educating the entire population will do that - and that takes generations.
If a woman goes to a UK court and files for divorce and the man refuses, then the dispute can be settled fairly and legally, and if the woman has valid reasons for divorce then she can.

I didn't say removing the courts would stop all problems withing the muslim community. They are a problem in themselves.

Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.
The option to circumvent the UK court system should not exist just because you believe in a magic man in the sky. Other UK citizens of other creeds are not granted this right.

Quote from: "Colanth"
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.
Exactly, so why not stop bending over backwards to allow illegitimate courts pass judgement, whilst simultaneously sending out the message that imposing sharia is a-okay?

Quote from: "Colanth"
Muslims are free, in the UK, to avail themselves of the UK justice system.  Many of them won't, whether you allow Sharia courts or not.
Being subject to UK courts isn't a choice. If you have a matter that you would like settled with legal finality and you choose not to make use of the universal, fair court system that was good enough to be emulated, then that's your problem. You don't get to set up a special one with different rules. If they come and live here and don't take advantage of fair treatment and taxpayer-provided services, then it's their fault for not benefitting from them.

Quote from: "Colanth"
That's the problem.  They want to live in the UK, but under the laws of the country they came from.  They refuse to assimilate.
Yeah, and our government bends over backwards to allow them to distance themselves further and to give them special treatment. If they won't assimilate, then fine, but if they refuse to participate in society we shouldn't be giving them extra rights that nobody else gets.

Immigrants not wanting to participate in society is a big problem.
Rewarding them for not doing so is not helping one little bit.

Offline Colanth

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2013, 06:57:28 PM »
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "Colanth"
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.
Sharia courts are solutions to nothing. If you have a money dispute, you go to small claims court. If you want a divorce, you file for divorce, etc.
If you want a divorce that will be recognized by the society you're living in (a Muslim society in this case) you go to a religious court.  The British courts can't grant divorces that are recognized by the Muslim community.  Yet.  If and when the Muslim community decides to become part of British society, that will change.

Quote
By deliberately allowing for sharia courts in law and going out of our way to accommodate them, we are not only passively allowing them to happen, we are actively sending out the message that people can circumvent UK law and aren't accountable to it.
In this case it's not circumventing any law.  The woman can still go to the British court and get a divorce, but to be recognized as a divorced woman by Muslim society, she has to get a religious divorce.

Quote
If I set up my own court and gave out my rulings I'd likely be shut down at the very least, or worse face charges.
If you grant "marriage" to couples, and claim (to them) to be the only authority able to dissolve those "marriages", no one is going to say anything.  If they want your kind of marriage they have to go to you.  If they want a legally binding marriage they have to go to the state.  That's the situation here - these women don't care whether the British government recognizes their marriage or divorce, all they care is whether their society, Muslim society, recognizes them.

Quote
Why does someone else get the right to flout the UK court system and set up their own?
How is it flouting anything?  A woman divorced in a Sharia court is still legally married according to the law - unless she's obtained a legal divorce.  A Sharia divorce in England has as much legal weight as 2 5 year olds declaring themselves "married" when they play house.  But to them it matters.

Quote
I didn't say removing the courts would stop all problems withing the muslim community. They are a problem in themselves, and they need to be dealt with.
You deal with them by education, not by making laws that will just be ignored.

Quote
Just because there are other problems doesn't mean this one shouldn't be solved.
Which one?  Women being able to be divorced in the eyes of their community?  Something that has nothing to do with the law?  How is that a problem?

The problem is people being attacked or killed for not being Muslim but coming into Muslim neighborhoods - and that has nothing to do with Sharia courts.  That should be dealt with the same way everything else in this world should be dealt with - by totally ignoring the religious aspect.  Assault and murder are illegal.  It makes no difference whether you assault someone for the hell of it, because you don't like him or because he's an infidel in a Muslim neighborhood - you go to prison for assault.

Religious freedom means the freedom to believe what you want, not the freedom to do what you want.  If your religion requires you to do something that's illegal, your religion can't be practiced where that act is illegal.  (At least, not that part of your religion.)

Or is England about to allow Thuggees the freedom to send sacrifices to Kali?

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.
The option to circumvent the UK court system should not exist just because you believe in a magic man in the sky. Other UK citizens of other creeds are not granted this right.
How is it circumventing anything?  To be legally divorced, a Muslim woman has to go to a British court (or however divorce is done there).  To get a religious divorce - the State has no business telling Islam what constitutes an Islamic divorce.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.
Exactly, so why not stop bending over backwards to allow illegitimate courts pass judgement, whilst simultaneously sending out the message that imposing sharia is a-okay?
Because you're conflating two totally unconnected things.

The British legal system has no business telling Islam what constitutes an Islamic marriage or an Islamic divorce.

That has nothing to do with people not being prosecuted for violating British law.

Getting "married" in some sham religious mumbo-jumbo isn't a violation of the law, it's play time.  If you want a legally recognized marriage you still have to get one the way the government says you have to.  (Which is a completely different thread - should the government be involved in marriage at all?)  If a Muslim woman goes to the courts and obtains a divorce, she's legally divorced.  Whether the Sharia court recognizes that fact or not is irrelevant - she's divorced.  But only legally, not according to the rules of Islam.  If that matters to her (and here's where religious freedom enters), she has to apply to a Sharia court for a divorce.  The government should not be able to grant religious divorces.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.
Sharia courts are solutions to nothing. If you have a money dispute, you go to small claims court. If you want a divorce, you file for divorce, etc.
Again - if you want a divorce recognized by the Muslim community, you get one from a Sharia court.  That has absolutely nothing to do with British law.  If you haven't obtained a British divorce you're still legally married.  But the Islamic divorce is important to those who believe it is.  (And the last time I looked, Britain guarantees freedom of belief.)  It does nothing legally, but it's important to the person getting it.  Like the color of her nails or the style of her shoes.

Quote
By deliberately allowing for sharia courts in law
No one said "in law" - other than "in Islamic law".  Break a British law and you face trial in a British court.  You want a legal right, you apply to the British government.

But if you want to make believe that you're "married" in the eyes of Allah, or that you're divorced in his eyes, you go to a Sharia court.  I'm not advocating writing Sharia into the legal system, just letting people who want to play in that sandbox the right to play there.  They still go to time out if they hit their friends.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Doing away with Sharia law won't keep a man from refusing to divorce his wife.  Or keep her family from shunning her if she gets divorced.  Only educating the entire population will do that - and that takes generations.
If a woman goes to a UK court and files for divorce and the man refuses, then the dispute can be settled fairly and legally, and if the woman has valid reasons for divorce then she can.
Regardless, if the court grants her the divorce, but she hasn't gotten one from a Sharia court, her society, her friends and family, will have nothing to do with her.  She's a non-person to them.  If the Sharia court grants her a divorce it's a different situation for her.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.
The option to circumvent the UK court system
No one said anything about circumventing anything.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.
Exactly, so why not stop bending over backwards to allow illegitimate courts pass judgement, whilst simultaneously sending out the message that imposing sharia is a-okay?
No one (here, at my desk) is advocating the imposition of Sharia law.  You're advocating closing down all Sharia courts.  Why?  They don't hurt anything.  They're play-acting, alongside the real legal system.

The problem is the British legal system, which refuses to tell the people that, regardless of what a Sharia court finds, the law of the country, the secular law, will be upheld.  They can play in Sharia courts all they like, but they can't harass people for being on the wrong street.  They can't force a woman to not seek a LEGAL divorce if she wants one.  And an "honor killing" will be treated as just what it is - premeditated murder with no justification.  The only alternative to that is to plead that, as a Muslim, one isn't responsible for his actions.  And I think the Imams would make short shrift of that claim (and of the claimant).

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Muslims are free, in the UK, to avail themselves of the UK justice system.  Many of them won't, whether you allow Sharia courts or not.
Being subject to UK courts isn't a choice.
I didn't say "subject to", I said "avail themselves of".  MANY Muslim women will not seek a divorce in a British court, they want a divorce in a Sharia court.  The British court is available to them, but no one can force them to use it.

Quote
If you have a matter that you would like settled with legal finality
Sharia courts settle matters with Islamic legal finality, not British legal finality.  And that's as it should be.  Whether you're accepted as a member of the Muslim community shouldn't be subject to British courts, but to Sharia courts.

Please stop putting words into my mouth and please stop conflating "allowing" with "forcing".
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Re: Netherlands Favors Ban on Sharia Law
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2013, 07:23:19 PM »
Long quote wall that causes Colin Powell to seethe with furious anger (for those who remember our popular meme).

[spoil:1y1w9esv]
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "Colanth"
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.
Sharia courts are solutions to nothing. If you have a money dispute, you go to small claims court. If you want a divorce, you file for divorce, etc.
If you want a divorce that will be recognized by the society you're living in (a Muslim society in this case) you go to a religious court.  The British courts can't grant divorces that are recognized by the Muslim community.  Yet.  If and when the Muslim community decides to become part of British society, that will change.

Quote
By deliberately allowing for sharia courts in law and going out of our way to accommodate them, we are not only passively allowing them to happen, we are actively sending out the message that people can circumvent UK law and aren't accountable to it.
In this case it's not circumventing any law.  The woman can still go to the British court and get a divorce, but to be recognized as a divorced woman by Muslim society, she has to get a religious divorce.

Quote
If I set up my own court and gave out my rulings I'd likely be shut down at the very least, or worse face charges.
If you grant "marriage" to couples, and claim (to them) to be the only authority able to dissolve those "marriages", no one is going to say anything.  If they want your kind of marriage they have to go to you.  If they want a legally binding marriage they have to go to the state.  That's the situation here - these women don't care whether the British government recognizes their marriage or divorce, all they care is whether their society, Muslim society, recognizes them.

Quote
Why does someone else get the right to flout the UK court system and set up their own?
How is it flouting anything?  A woman divorced in a Sharia court is still legally married according to the law - unless she's obtained a legal divorce.  A Sharia divorce in England has as much legal weight as 2 5 year olds declaring themselves "married" when they play house.  But to them it matters.
Quote
I didn't say removing the courts would stop all problems withing the muslim community. They are a problem in themselves, and they need to be dealt with.
You deal with them by education, not by making laws that will just be ignored.

Quote
Just because there are other problems doesn't mean this one shouldn't be solved.
Which one?  Women being able to be divorced in the eyes of their community?  Something that has nothing to do with the law?  How is that a problem?

The problem is people being attacked or killed for not being Muslim but coming into Muslim neighborhoods - and that has nothing to do with Sharia courts.  That should be dealt with the same way everything else in this world should be dealt with - by totally ignoring the religious aspect.  Assault and murder are illegal.  It makes no difference whether you assault someone for the hell of it, because you don't like him or because he's an infidel in a Muslim neighborhood - you go to prison for assault.

Religious freedom means the freedom to believe what you want, not the freedom to do what you want.  If your religion requires you to do something that's illegal, your religion can't be practiced where that act is illegal.  (At least, not that part of your religion.)

Or is England about to allow Thuggees the freedom to send sacrifices to Kali?

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.
The option to circumvent the UK court system should not exist just because you believe in a magic man in the sky. Other UK citizens of other creeds are not granted this right.
How is it circumventing anything?  To be legally divorced, a Muslim woman has to go to a British court (or however divorce is done there).  To get a religious divorce - the State has no business telling Islam what constitutes an Islamic divorce.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.
Exactly, so why not stop bending over backwards to allow illegitimate courts pass judgement, whilst simultaneously sending out the message that imposing sharia is a-okay?
Because you're conflating two totally unconnected things.

The British legal system has no business telling Islam what constitutes an Islamic marriage or an Islamic divorce.

That has nothing to do with people not being prosecuted for violating British law.

Getting "married" in some sham religious mumbo-jumbo isn't a violation of the law, it's play time.  If you want a legally recognized marriage you still have to get one the way the government says you have to.  (Which is a completely different thread - should the government be involved in marriage at all?)  If a Muslim woman goes to the courts and obtains a divorce, she's legally divorced.  Whether the Sharia court recognizes that fact or not is irrelevant - she's divorced.  But only legally, not according to the rules of Islam.  If that matters to her (and here's where religious freedom enters), she has to apply to a Sharia court for a divorce.  The government should not be able to grant religious divorces.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
It's naive to think that taking away the solutions that people have come up with to solve their problems (even though they're not good solutions) will solve the initial problems.
Sharia courts are solutions to nothing. If you have a money dispute, you go to small claims court. If you want a divorce, you file for divorce, etc.
Again - if you want a divorce recognized by the Muslim community, you get one from a Sharia court.  That has absolutely nothing to do with British law.  If you haven't obtained a British divorce you're still legally married.  But the Islamic divorce is important to those who believe it is.  (And the last time I looked, Britain guarantees freedom of belief.)  It does nothing legally, but it's important to the person getting it.  Like the color of her nails or the style of her shoes.

Quote
By deliberately allowing for sharia courts in law
No one said "in law" - other than "in Islamic law".  Break a British law and you face trial in a British court.  You want a legal right, you apply to the British government.

But if you want to make believe that you're "married" in the eyes of Allah, or that you're divorced in his eyes, you go to a Sharia court.  I'm not advocating writing Sharia into the legal system, just letting people who want to play in that sandbox the right to play there.  They still go to time out if they hit their friends.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Doing away with Sharia law won't keep a man from refusing to divorce his wife.  Or keep her family from shunning her if she gets divorced.  Only educating the entire population will do that - and that takes generations.
If a woman goes to a UK court and files for divorce and the man refuses, then the dispute can be settled fairly and legally, and if the woman has valid reasons for divorce then she can.
Regardless, if the court grants her the divorce, but she hasn't gotten one from a Sharia court, her society, her friends and family, will have nothing to do with her.  She's a non-person to them.  If the Sharia court grants her a divorce it's a different situation for her.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote
One step forwards is better than none.
But removing a woman's option isn't a step forward, it's a step back.
The option to circumvent the UK court system
No one said anything about circumventing anything.

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
The desire of the people to have Sharia law imposed (and imposing it on an informal basis - which no law will prevent) is what's causing the problem.
Exactly, so why not stop bending over backwards to allow illegitimate courts pass judgement, whilst simultaneously sending out the message that imposing sharia is a-okay?
No one (here, at my desk) is advocating the imposition of Sharia law.  You're advocating closing down all Sharia courts.  Why?  They don't hurt anything.  They're play-acting, alongside the real legal system.

The problem is the British legal system, which refuses to tell the people that, regardless of what a Sharia court finds, the law of the country, the secular law, will be upheld.  They can play in Sharia courts all they like, but they can't harass people for being on the wrong street.  They can't force a woman to not seek a LEGAL divorce if she wants one.  And an "honor killing" will be treated as just what it is - premeditated murder with no justification.  The only alternative to that is to plead that, as a Muslim, one isn't responsible for his actions.  And I think the Imams would make short shrift of that claim (and of the claimant).

Quote
Quote from: "Colanth"
Muslims are free, in the UK, to avail themselves of the UK justice system.  Many of them won't, whether you allow Sharia courts or not.
Being subject to UK courts isn't a choice.
I didn't say "subject to", I said "avail themselves of".  MANY Muslim women will not seek a divorce in a British court, they want a divorce in a Sharia court.  The British court is available to them, but no one can force them to use it.

Quote
If you have a matter that you would like settled with legal finality
Sharia courts settle matters with Islamic legal finality, not British legal finality.  And that's as it should be.  Whether you're accepted as a member of the Muslim community shouldn't be subject to British courts, but to Sharia courts.

Please stop putting words into my mouth and please stop conflating "allowing" with "forcing".[/quote][/spoil:1y1w9esv]

This entire conversation is basically irrelevant.  This is not about some individual Muslim woman's rights within the law.  What it is about, in its plainest and simplest terms, is a loud pronouncement "Fuck you, Abdul.  This is (your country here), and in this country we abide by THESE rules and laws, thank you very much."  It is a stripping of the legitimacy of Sharia that legality gives it.  By operating Sharia courts, how can a country ever expect all its citizens to be bound under a uniform set of laws?  So while Muslims may still attach social stigma to whatever they wish because, you know, Muslims are totally head-fucked, they cannot attach legal stigma to things that go against the established laws of (your country here).  THAT is the message...not the individual Muslim housewife.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk