Author Topic: Is a ban on Muslims legal???  (Read 4552 times)

Offline fencerider (OP)

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2017, 09:10:45 PM »
I don't think we have any lawyers in the forum... I could only make guesses.
In that case the question is open to opinion, interpretation, and reverse engineering.
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM

Offline fencerider (OP)

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2017, 09:17:37 PM »
It was legal back in 2011 when Obama did the same ban from the same 7 countries that Trump did just now.
Whether or not it is legal now is a matter of opinion for the current Justice Department.

To be technically complete what Trump did was done by executive order, so it is impossible to be considered a Bill of Attainder.

Feb 3, 2017 court in Seattle had said the ban is illegal and there is now a temp injunction
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM

Offline Baruch

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2017, 09:46:18 PM »
that would be counter intuitive, since they now want to break separation of church and state. If they do that to islam to, then america officially becomes a new theocracy under christianity.. again!

But but ... don't forget Jewish theocracy.  Choose that, and every male gets a new circumcision just to make sure ;-))
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Offline Baruch

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2017, 09:48:00 PM »
In that case the question is open to opinion, interpretation, and reverse engineering.

Was your response to "with" or "without" attorneys? ;-)
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Offline Baruch

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2017, 09:50:16 PM »
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/federal-judge-declines-to-extend-one-week-freeze-against-trumps-travel-ban/

This is why we can't have nice things ... two judges, three opinions ;-(
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 07:31:18 AM by Baruch »
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Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2017, 09:50:55 PM »
All it really halts and slows is trade, which actually increases aggravation towards us in those countries and actually increases the likeliness of terrorist attacks.
It really fucked people with green cards.

Imagine being a loyal, peaceable American citizen and getting the shock of your life at the airport, watching security slap handcuffs on you and your 5-year-old son.  Hearing how you're considered a security risk by the orange buffoon who couldn't properly vet his own administration let alone the country's immigrants.  The initial shock and confusion among those on the receiving side of this executive order might have been something akin to what Japanese Americans felt during WWII.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2017, 09:52:34 PM »
It is true, that exceptional processing could have been included, to take care of those who are most likely to be inconvenienced by this ... but I wouldn't do squat for anyone not already here.
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Offline Atheon

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2017, 11:13:33 PM »
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - First Amendment to the US Constitution

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" - Emma Lazarus
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline fencerider (OP)

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2017, 01:30:38 AM »
aye aye Atheon I agree with the idea of treating citizens and foreigners alike as described by the Constitution. But now that we have Frump in the white house, it would be nice to know where the legal limits are.
Would you like to play with my invisible friend? HE can give you anything that you want. All you have to do is ask HIM

Offline pr126

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2017, 03:48:14 AM »
“It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.” ― Arthur C. Clarke

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2017, 06:47:50 AM »
Quote from: fencerider
Here is a question for all the lawyers out there....

If Donald Trump was to get Congress to pass a ban on American muslims, that ban would fit the definition of a Bill of Attainer; a direct violation of the U.S. Constitution. However, if Donald Trump was to get Congress to pass a ban on foreign muslims, would that ban fit the definition of a Bill of Attainder? To what extent do Constitutional protections given to Americans apply to foreigners?
In that case the question is open to opinion, interpretation, and reverse engineering.
I would fall under the not a lawyer but I do have an opinion/interpretation...

A new law regarding a 'ban on American muslims' would be struck down as unconstitutional.

It is also most likely a 'ban on foreign muslims' would be struck down as unconstitutional for the same reason, Article 1 in the Bill of Rights.

As I understand it, Constitutional protections do not apply to foreigners before they pass thru customs (with caveats including a right to appeal often while being held in detention) and it gets really shady in the 100 mile border patrol authority:

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

However, the current immigration ban has a foundation in (as far as I know untested) law:
Quote
"(f) Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-2006/0-0-0-2364.html

In the above link, near the top of the page is a Previous document - Next document link which gives more authority for the current actions of the Trump EO such as this lengthy section in Previous document:

(B) Terrorist activities-

Below that is this  semi-related clause:

(D) Immigrant membership in totalitarian party.-

I think at least some flavors of Islam would qualify as totalitarian.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2017, 07:03:20 AM »
Since the Constitution does only protect American citizens, I think at face value a law expressively prohibiting Muslims (or any religion) from coming into the country would be technically legal. The protection from religious infringement does not extent to people outside our domain.

Of course the law is generally taken at more than just face value, and as for those mechanics I have no idea what the legality would or wouldn't be.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2017, 07:30:36 AM »
Since the Constitution does only protect American citizens, I think at face value a law expressively prohibiting Muslims (or any religion) from coming into the country would be technically legal. The protection from religious infringement does not extent to people outside our domain.

Of course the law is generally taken at more than just face value, and as for those mechanics I have no idea what the legality would or wouldn't be.

Action beyond the law ... is presumption or force majeur.  States do this all the time.  The idea of international law, is an interesting idea, observed in the breech.  Hence a treaty between the US and Iran, that is observed in the center, but broken at the edges.  Under neoLiberalism, the US government has tried to develop mechanisms in international law, particular against tax dodging, that allow US law to transcend US boundaries.  Non-US governments have a legitimate problem with this.  Saudi Arabia does something similar, they want their shariah law against defamation of Muhammad, extended to all countries.  For the Saudis, every web page, every Facebook post, every Trump twitter, would have to be vetted by a Sunni imam.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 07:35:51 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2017, 07:34:09 AM »
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - First Amendment to the US Constitution

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" - Emma Lazarus

95% of the world isn't American and spit on Americans, with some justification.  Of course the ideals of narrative control, do find admirers both within and without US borders.  For others, it gives reason to make war on the US (I am looking at you GB).  The "all created equal" wasn't constitutional or statutory law, but it provided the inspiration for the US Civil War.  Ideals today may do that again.  Will you kill to fulfill the ideal of the Statue of Liberty ... while being an ex-pat?  MLK wasn't willing to kill for what he believed, but he was willing to die for it.  He said if you don't have something you are willing to die for, you aren't a full human being.  Are you a full human being, even if a pacifist?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 07:41:13 AM by Baruch »
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Offline SGOS

Re: Is a ban on Muslims legal???
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2017, 07:36:02 AM »
NPR interviewed a Muslim Family that had permission to move to the US.  I can't remember what country they were from.  At the airport they were told they were no longer allowed to travel to the US, and were sent home. They are living with friends now because they had sold their home.  In addition, they lost thousands of dollars on the Airline tickets that were cancelled.

While this doesn't address legality, it does speak to poorly thought out policy and callous disregard for permissions they had previously received.  Of course, this was NPR and probably can't be trusted like those videos guys make for Utube.