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Drew_2017

Started by Drew_2017, January 28, 2017, 06:45:27 PM

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aitm

Quote from: Drew_2017 on January 31, 2017, 11:03:06 PM
In order for your complaint to have any merit there has to be an actual standard of behavior to measure by. Where do you get such a standard from?

Anthropology 101. The evolution of life creates its own behavior modifications for that life to best survive. Mutual cooperation and sharing of "wealth" promises a better chance of survival. Your "creator" is not needed for any aspect of the existence of the universe or humanity and certainly not human behavior.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

aitm

Quote from: Drew_2017 on January 31, 2017, 11:23:27 PM

6.   The fact that sentient beings cause virtual universes to exist which in effect is a working model of theism.

Example?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Quote from: aitm on February 05, 2017, 03:57:57 PM
Anthropology 101. The evolution of life creates its own behavior modifications for that life to best survive. Mutual cooperation and sharing of "wealth" promises a better chance of survival. Your "creator" is not needed for any aspect of the existence of the universe or humanity and certainly not human behavior.

Cooperation?  Prisoner's Dilemma ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: aitm on February 05, 2017, 04:00:29 PM
Example?

Perhaps he thinks that video games are real, in a way that fiction books are not.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Drew_2017

Quote from: aitm on February 05, 2017, 03:57:57 PM
Anthropology 101. The evolution of life creates its own behavior modifications for that life to best survive. Mutual cooperation and sharing of "wealth" promises a better chance of survival. Your "creator" is not needed for any aspect of the existence of the universe or humanity and certainly not human behavior.

Our values and morals are based on a process called survival of the fittest?

You state your deeply held conviction a Creator isn't necessary as a fact. What evidence supports this declarative statement?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Drew_2017

6.   The fact that sentient beings cause virtual universes to exist which in effect is a working model of theism.

Quote from: aitm on February 05, 2017, 04:00:29 PM
Example?

Any virtual universe created is an example of how we can trace the existence of a virtual universe to sentient creators. The creators of virtual universes are the gods of that universe, they are transcendent to the universe they create. They can change the 'laws of physics' at will. Virtual universes are a working example of the theistic model of our actual universe. Any naturalistic models available?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Baruch

This universe is analog, not digital.  Digital approximation to analog doesn't count ;-)  Human creation of an analog feedback control system ... is more germane than a video game.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Drew_2017 on February 06, 2017, 12:24:07 PM
6.   The fact that sentient beings cause virtual universes to exist which in effect is a working model of theism.

Any virtual universe created is an example of how we can trace the existence of a virtual universe to sentient creators. The creators of virtual universes are the gods of that universe, they are transcendent to the universe they create. They can change the 'laws of physics' at will. Virtual universes are a working example of the theistic model of our actual universe. Any naturalistic models available?
What do you mean by 'virtual universe'? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 06, 2017, 12:51:26 PM
What do you mean by 'virtual universe'?

He may be a follower of the game of Life, cellular automata, and the cult of Stephen Wolfram?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

hrdlr110

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 28, 2017, 10:34:37 PM
Watchmaker argument.  Never seen that before.

I have a running tally of people who have successfully used that argument.  (I'll give you a hint: it's the same number as the number of world wars that Germany has won)

Yes, but one of these numbers is subject to change!
Q for theists; how can there be freewill and miracles? And, how can prayer exist in an environment as regimented as "gods plan"?

"I'm a polyatheist, there are many gods I don't believe in." - Dan Fouts

Drew_2017

Quote from: Baruch on February 06, 2017, 12:45:28 PM
This universe is analog, not digital.  Digital approximation to analog doesn't count ;-)  Human creation of an analog feedback control system ... is more germane than a video game.

I'll let those who consider the notion decide if the creation of virtual universes (on a computer using software) is analogous to the theory of a Creator causing the universe to exist. Right now we can only create virtual universes perhaps due to our limitation of knowledge. The irony is, we may never be smart enough to create what is alleged to have occurred (a universe) by mindless natural forces without plan or any intent to do so...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Drew_2017

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Mike Cl

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

#73
Quote from: Drew_2017 on February 07, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
Something like this...

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2014-10

I can simulate a simple harmonic oscillator (mass and spring) on a spreadsheet.  And per Pythagoras, that is analogous to the actual thing.  But I could have just hand calculated it, instead of using a computer.  In what way is the graph of the variables on the spreadsheet which recalculate each time I change the parameters of the model more ... creative ... than using pencil and paper?  A mathematical system can be used to simulate nature, but not emulate it.  A small wooden boat (such as used in ship design) is an emulation of the larger ship ... as is the small airplane model in the wind tunnel an emulation of the full airplane in flight.  The usual reason for doing those design techniques, is because the math is too hard, but with powerful computers (like the one mentioned in your link) we can simulate the same thing.  Why is a simulation not the same as an emulation?  Well, because like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge failure.  The simulation only does what you tell it to, if something is missing, then it isn't there.  With the emulation however (a bridge in a wind tunnel) one could discover this problem during small scale testing (though problems develop with "scale" even with wind tunnels and ship buoyancy/drag tanks).  Today we know by example, that the roadway of a suspension bridge functions also as a wing ... but what of the next real phenomena that was left out of our equations?  This is why numerical simulation, and even closed form equations, aren't the same as the real thing, particularly not at full scale.  Pythagoreanism is useful, but ultimately it is a fallacy to confuse simulation with emulation ... for the same reason that interpolation is more reliable than extrapolation.  Ultimately you have to build the full scale ship, and have sea trials.  Similarly build the full scale airplane and have a test pilot test fly it .. to extremes.  We could have perfect equations or perfect calculations ... but not without omniscience.  As humans we are limited to quantitative approximations, that might not display all qualitative behavior.  Science philosophers try to cover this by hypothesizing "different physics at different scales aka emergent behavior" .. but my examples disprove this.  The Tacoma Narrows Bridge could have been tested against wind shear in a wind tunnel before it was built, and having had that experience, we now do that as part of the design process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFzu6CNtqec

Similarly ships have been lost at sea due to large rogue waves and unanticipated oscillatory stress on the framework of the ship.  For a long time rogue waves .. and rogue lightning (sprites) were denied to even exist, because they didn't match the knowledge of academic experts.

On the other hand, when my wife and I created a new person, the natural way ... we did create a new universe, because each human being is its own, semi-independent universe of psychology and life.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Solomon Zorn

The problem that I see, with "the universe is a simulation" premise, is WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SIMULATING? Where did the pattern come from? Somewhere there has to be an original to simulate. One where fingers and toes and smiling faces have the same function and meaning. Doesn't Occam's razor suggest, that this universe is the original?
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com