Insults, Misunderstandings and Surprises: How Christians react to the A word

Started by Bluewind, January 13, 2017, 12:01:12 PM

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Heisreal on January 26, 2017, 11:08:09 PM
There is only One who is perfect, 
Can I assume you're referring to Jesus as the only perfect One?

If so, I submit that Jesus was, in fact, not perfect, because he lied, and he killed a perfectly good fig tree merely because it did not bear fruit out of season.

John 7:6-10 (KJV):
QuoteThen Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

How is this not a lie?

Jesus also claimed, at his trial, that he had ever only taught openly, and never in secret, but he did teach secretly:

John 18:20
QuoteJesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

And yet, Jesus is known to have taught in such obscure ways that few if any understood what the hell he was talking about, and often demanded secrecy:

Of demons-

Mark 1:34
QuoteAnd he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Mark 3:11-12:
QuoteAnd unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.
Luke 4:41:
QuoteAnd devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Of his followers-

Matthew 16:20:
QuoteThen charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mark 8:30:
QuoteAnd he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Luke 9:21:
QuoteAnd he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

And those he healed-

Mat 8:3-4:
QuoteAnd Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mat 12:15-16:
QuoteBut when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mark 1:44:
QuoteAnd saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mark 5:43:
QuoteAnd he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
Mark 7:36:
QuoteAnd he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;
Luke 5:14:
QuoteAnd he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Luke 8:56:
QuoteAnd her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.


And the poor innocent fig tree:

Matthew 21:19-22:
QuoteAnd when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.



Mark 11:13-14:
QuoteAnd seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.


So I think Jesus was far from perfect. I could go on and on with similar proofs of my contention, but I hope this is sufficient.










God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 05:55:26 PMJeremiah 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

That's a promise from the Almighty God!
And just another damned lie.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 27, 2017, 06:19:10 PM
And just another damned lie.

Jeremiah 33.3 is true in my experience.  But don't ask for something if you can't process the answer.  You will not get the god you want.  So when you reject the god you get, you aren't rejecting god, you are rejecting your projection of your own ego.

The fig tree story is a very obscure metaphor, and even I can't recall the exact explanation.  But basically it has to do with following a dead faith vs a living one.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Heisreal

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 27, 2017, 06:16:55 PM
Can I assume you're referring to Jesus as the only perfect One?

If so, I submit that Jesus was, in fact, not perfect, because he lied, and he killed a perfectly good fig tree merely because it did not bear fruit out of season.

John 7:6-10 (KJV):

How is this not a lie?

Jesus also claimed, at his trial, that he had ever only taught openly, and never in secret, but he did teach secretly:

John 18:20
And yet, Jesus is known to have taught in such obscure ways that few if any understood what the hell he was talking about, and often demanded secrecy:

Of demons-

Mark 1:34 
Mark 3:11-12: Luke 4:41:

Of his followers-

Matthew 16:20:Mark 8:30:
Luke 9:21:

And those he healed-

Mat 8:3-4:
Mat 12:15-16:
Mark 1:44:Mark 5:43:
Mark 7:36:
Luke 5:14:Luke 8:56:

And the poor innocent fig tree:

Matthew 21:19-22:


Mark 11:13-14:


So I think Jesus was far from perfect. I could go on and on with similar proofs of my contention, but I hope this is sufficient.












It's very difficult to communicate with someone who has no idea how to read and understand scripture.

Do you know the purpose of the withering fig tree?

Do you know what the fig tree represented?

Do you know why Christ came to the fig tree out of season?

Of course you don't! All you can see is our Lord killing a fig tree, and have no idea that very shortly over one million people would die in Israel with this fig tree being one of the warnings.

As for the rest of your quoted scripture, please, give me a break and gain some understanding of what you are saying.

Blackleaf

Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 05:55:26 PM
God is not far away from you, Blackleaf! He is very near waiting to make Himself real to you. He didn't create you or anyone else to be a robot. He created you in His own image with a specific purpose that no one on earth can fulfill but you. He gave you free will to accept Him or reject Him, He will NOT over-ride your free will.

Jeremiah 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

That's a promise from the Almighty God!

In true Christian fashion, you fail to see the point. Is God omniscient? If so, he not only knows our actions ahead of time, but he knew every possible universe that he could have created, including some where we'd choose not to sin. Is he omnipotent? If so, he had the power to create a universe where we'd choose not to sin. Free will has nothing to do with it. He had to choose one universe out of an infinite number of possibilities, and he willingly created one where he knew the vast majority of humans would go to Hell.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Blackleaf

Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 07:40:12 PM
It's very difficult to communicate with someone who has no idea how to read and understand scripture.

Yes. This is just how I feel when every dumbass like you comes here and quotes scripture. Unbeliever showed their understanding of scripture. You, however, have failed to do so, yet you try to use the cop out argument, "But you're an atheist, so you just don't understand scripture." Fuck you.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Heisreal

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 28, 2017, 02:24:09 AM
Yes. This is just how I feel when every dumbass like you comes here and quotes scripture. Unbeliever showed their understanding of scripture. You, however, have failed to do so, yet you try to use the cop out argument, "But you're an atheist, so you just don't understand scripture." Fuck you.

If you guys are going to interpret scripture, I suggest you at least read it first instead of taking the ideas of someone else and expounding on stupidity.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2017, 07:24:24 PMThe fig tree story is a very obscure metaphor, and even I can't recall the exact explanation.  But basically it has to do with following a dead faith vs a living one.
Exactly, it was a story - a myth - with an object lesson, a moral, just like Aesop's fables, that many tens of millions of people believe is the literal truth. As you say, "an obscure metaphor."
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 28, 2017, 02:18:08 AM
In true Christian fashion, you fail to see the point. Is God omniscient? If so, he not only knows our actions ahead of time, but he knew every possible universe that he could have created, including some where we'd choose not to sin. Is he omnipotent? If so, he had the power to create a universe where we'd choose not to sin. Free will has nothing to do with it. He had to choose one universe out of an infinite number of possibilities, and he willingly created one where he knew the vast majority of humans would go to Hell.
And God should certainly, given his vast superpowers, have been able to create a universe in which our lack of sin wouldn't have resulted in our being "robots."

And if God had only a limited omniscience and omnipotence (and omni-etcetera), then he wasn't really what we would consider a perfect God, was he? And just how do we measure whatever those limits might be? Do we simply take the word of those who claim to know God intimately? Whatever the priest/preacher says we just swallow it whole?

I think not.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
If you guys are going to interpret scripture, I suggest you at least read it first instead of taking the ideas of someone else and expounding on stupidity.
Well, since I don't have the Holy Ghost to guide me, I have to rely on my own puny human brain to figure things out. I figure it says what it seems to say, not what I want it to say.


God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Blackleaf

Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
If you guys are going to interpret scripture, I suggest you at least read it first instead of taking the ideas of someone else and expounding on stupidity.

Again, this is exactly what I think when idiots like you come here and quote scripture. Atheists know the Bible better than Christians do, because unlike you, when we read it, we're not having it fed to us in church where they tell us how to interpret it. You're the one spreading someone else's ideas without bothering to criticize those ideas yourself.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0928/In-US-atheists-know-religion-better-than-believers.-Is-that-bad

"The US Religious Knowledge Survey, released Tuesday from the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, found atheists and agnostics know more basic facts about the Bible than either Protestants or Catholics."

I was a Christian for most of my life, and I read the entire New Testament on my own time, as well as a good chunk of the Old Testament. How much of the Bible have you read on your own? Be honest. Remember, your sky daddy will know if you're lying.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

fencerider

I read the whole thing from cover to cover 4 times. Some parts 10 times. Some parts 20 times. and a few like Genesis chapter 1and2 too many times trying to put it all together in one neat package. ( kinda obvious that they didnt know exactly how it was supposed to happen so they included two different versions of creation)

Looks like unbeliever's expose shows a real understanding of the text. It is definitely not a repeat of someone elses stupidity. Maybe you find it offensive to have a description of Jesus that portraits him as less than perfect, but we shouldn't hide from truth even if it takes us to a place we don't want to go.

If a real god was to show up, it would not bother in the least to know he was not omnipotent, or omniscient, or the fact that he isnt even good. My reaction would be more like "Holee cow at least one of these gods is real". It would be nice if he was sorta good but Hades and Apoleon were gods too.
"Do you believe in god?", is not a proper English sentence. Unless you believe that, "Do you believe in apple?", is a proper English sentence.

Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

*sigh* The few rational parts of the Bible are those that relate to nomadic people learning to settle down in larger groups.  Most of the decent advice there is just the hard-won knowledge THAT THEY ALREADY HAD LEARNED  in order to live in larger groups.  The religious parts are just scare tactics for the wayward ones who failed "Village 101".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 09:54:04 AM
*sigh* The few rational parts of the Bible are those that relate to nomadic people learning to settle down in larger groups.  Most of the decent advice there is just the hard-won knowledge THAT THEY ALREADY HAD LEARNED  in order to live in larger groups.  The religious parts are just scare tactics for the wayward ones who failed "Village 101".

We are still failing Village 101.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.