Author Topic: Conviction or Repetition  (Read 3609 times)

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 11:46:43 PM »
But ultimately goes back to being merciful in all things.

I wouldn't even say that. Based off of things that I've read from you I can tell that you are a Christian, I do hope you realize that it talks about killing Christians, Jews and pretty much all non-believers quite a bit. But yeah, if you ignore like, 40% of the book at best, I guess it can talk about love sometimes?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2017, 11:58:26 PM »
No they don't
Yes they do--all of them--100%.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Baruch

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 06:22:09 AM »
No they don't

Causation?  People fear.  People are religious, so religion reinforces fear?  I would agree that is a simplistic over generalization.  For some people in their own life, they tied fear with religion ... and it isn't uncommon.  In the Soviet Union, atheists were fearful, and not because of religion.  Religion was how they resisted fear.
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Online Baruch

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 06:28:24 AM »
I wouldn't even say that. Based off of things that I've read from you I can tell that you are a Christian, I do hope you realize that it talks about killing Christians, Jews and pretty much all non-believers quite a bit. But yeah, if you ignore like, 40% of the book at best, I guess it can talk about love sometimes?

No religion is all mercy and no justice.  Some people think that the NT has no wrath.  Islam is very wrathful ... with some mercy.  The mercy of these Abrahamic gods is this ... you do what their god says, and their god won't burn you for all eternity.  And not burning for all eternity, is merciful.  And any Abrahamic god is magnanimous ... in the sense that lightning doesn't come out of the sky every time you sin ... because their god is waiting for you to turn your life around.

Buddhism and Hinduism have hells too, multiple levels like in Dante's Inferno ... only with reincarnation.  The idea of divine punishment goes back to New Kingdom Egypt and the Book of the Dead.  So pretty much, for most of history, religion has been fear inducing, but not just that.  So in Islam, Allah is called merciful.  In Buddhism, the Buddha is called compassionate.

Even Santa Clause keeps track if you are naughty or nice ;-)  For some people, the only believable god is one that gives gold stars for mere participation.  A kindergarten teacher god ... the god of Eden, but without expelling Adam and Eve ... a god where there is no sin and no punishment for sin.  BTW, I don't accept that model of god myself, the kindergarten god or the school bully god.  My god is right here, right now ... for better or worse ... hence I call myself a mystic.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:31:52 AM by Baruch »
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Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 06:35:06 AM »
Yes they do--all of them--100%.
No...They don't.

As if you have witnessed every religious leader ever.


Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 06:36:33 AM »
I wouldn't even say that. Based off of things that I've read from you I can tell that you are a Christian, I do hope you realize that it talks about killing Christians, Jews and pretty much all non-believers quite a bit. But yeah, if you ignore like, 40% of the book at best, I guess it can talk about love sometimes?
Quote any verse out of the Quran and I can show you how it goes back, ultimately, to mercy, as GOD is merciful.



Online Baruch

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 06:54:02 AM »
No...They don't.

As if you have witnessed every religious leader ever.

Anyway, don't fear the religious leaders, fear the religious followers ;-)  Or gird up your loins, and stop being fearful.  Nothing worse will happen to you today, besides a horrible death ... so face it and man up!
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Online Baruch

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 06:54:44 AM »
Quote any verse out of the Quran and I can show you how it goes back, ultimately, to mercy, as GOD is merciful.

People here aren't interested in apologetic ... just their own polemic.
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Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 07:24:28 AM »
Quote any verse out of the Quran and I can show you how it goes back, ultimately, to mercy, as GOD is merciful.

But if I do that, you'll pull something out of your ass that won't make any sense whatsoever. So logic would dictate that I shouldn't do that because you're trying your best to spout out your bullshit that you think has some sort of intellectual integrity.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 07:44:34 AM »
But if I do that, you'll pull something out of your ass that won't make any sense whatsoever. So logic would dictate that I shouldn't do that because you're trying your best to spout out your bullshit that you think has some sort of intellectual integrity.
No friend. I give my word that I will try my best to show my claim with the Quran and or any other scented text I have have mentioned here.

The texts you speak of would be taken out of context where as mine would be not only intact within their own but too expounded upon with seemingly wholly different books from seemingly wholly different faiths.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 09:27:49 AM »
Quote any verse out of the Quran and I can show you how it goes back, ultimately, to mercy, as GOD is merciful.
How can that be when god does not even exist?  Except as a fiction in your head.



Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 09:56:49 AM »
Most Christian's are seemingly oblivious to the fact that the two faiths reference all the same things, including GOD.

Well, that's what I thought at one time, but I also have to admit that the motives of the Christian god and Allah aren't actually identical in the Bible and the Quran.  But it is possible to think they are identical descriptions if you use a lot of license to ignore the discrepancies and focus on the similarities.  But I'm quite sure we are talking about two different god's here, and the disparity between the two is even bigger than the disparity between the Catholic god and the Baptist god.

Also, if you meld the words of the scriptures with common Chrstian tropes invented without Biblical support, you can select concepts of both gods that make them appear identical.

I remember a radio evangelist (I get a kick out of listening to these guys while I drive sometimes) who said he had a conversation with a Muslim the other day (this was just after 9-11 so the evangelist was really fired up).  Apparently, the Muslim said, "But we actually both worship the same god," which only added more fuel to the minister's flaming anger.  And according to the sermon, he proceeded to take the dumb ass Muslim to the wood shed to give him a proper whoopin' as all Muslims deserve, where he clearly delineated the differences between their two gods, and left the Muslim quivering in his boots.

Of course this was a sermon, and late Saturday night, the evangelist probably realized he better get his ass in gear and come up with a topic for the next day's broadcast.  Who knows if he even had a conversation with a Muslim just "the other day" or not?  Who cares?  He just need a topic to get all "self righteous for God," and demonstrate to his flock how they should get fired up too.  In other words, it was most likely just a sermon that fell out of his brain because he needed to talk for an hour.  But it's great fun listening to these guys with their evangelical accent an autocratic delivery.

Offline SGOS

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 10:06:27 AM »
Here's a scene from one of my favorite but obscure British comedies, Cold Comfort Farm, where sinners attend the a service at the Church of Quivering Brethren, so called because the minister verbally beats the shit out of them and tells them it's too late, and no matter what they do, they will burn in Hell, which leaves them quivering.  And they keep coming back to church every week just to quiver in the futility of their horrible destiny.


Online Baruch

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2017, 12:48:15 PM »
But if I do that, you'll pull something out of your ass that won't make any sense whatsoever. So logic would dictate that I shouldn't do that because you're trying your best to spout out your bullshit that you think has some sort of intellectual integrity.

The problem with scriptural interpretation ... it has four levels, not just one.

Most people are satisfied with the first level, the literal, out of context level.  Ignorant religious and usually better informed atheists, take this approach.  They are usually countering religious literalists, so they operate on that level.  The second level is context ... context with the rest of scripture.  Still literal, but you can't take a verse out of context, you can't proof-text.  The third level is cultural ... what does this scripture mean, in terms of the original language and culture that it came out of.  Here we have to rely on analogy and creative reconstruction of societies that don't exist anymore.  Current society may or may not be a guide to this.  Bedouin are not far culturally from Muhammad ... but most Christians are culturally alien relative to Jewish Messianics in the early Roman Empire.  The fourth level is spiritual ... what does this mean in terms of your personal relationship with the supernatural.  Most people never get past the first level, and that is to be expected ... in something that requires single minded attention to tree and forest.
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Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2017, 04:00:48 PM »
The problem with scriptural interpretation ... it has four levels, not just one.

Most people are satisfied with the first level, the literal, out of context level.  Ignorant religious and usually better informed atheists, take this approach.  They are usually countering religious literalists, so they operate on that level.  The second level is context ... context with the rest of scripture.  Still literal, but you can't take a verse out of context, you can't proof-text.  The third level is cultural ... what does this scripture mean, in terms of the original language and culture that it came out of.  Here we have to rely on analogy and creative reconstruction of societies that don't exist anymore.  Current society may or may not be a guide to this.  Bedouin are not far culturally from Muhammad ... but most Christians are culturally alien relative to Jewish Messianics in the early Roman Empire.  The fourth level is spiritual ... what does this mean in terms of your personal relationship with the supernatural.  Most people never get past the first level, and that is to be expected ... in something that requires single minded attention to tree and forest.

So when did reading a book straight forward start becoming reading something out of context. I didn't your comment's first sentence and then jump around the rest of your paragraph. If you think that jumping around a book outside the author's intent, which would be reading it straight from front to back, then you're reading the book wrong.
It's kind of like looking at a seeing all the evidence for a murderer who has been proven guilty, and then looking only at the evidence that the murderer gave for him not killing and saying that he did nothing wrong because the defendant had nothing to say.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.