Author Topic: Conviction or Repetition  (Read 2759 times)

Offline fencerider (OP)

Conviction or Repetition
« on: January 07, 2017, 01:14:33 AM »
So many people go to church today because their mama did it and mama made them do it. and the reason mama did it was because grandma did it and she made mama do it.

On the other hand there are people who grow up in a Muslim or a Budhist family. Then they have some kind of experience that convinces them that Christianity is the way to go.

I am curious to know how many people are Christian because they actually sat down and looked at all the information, thought about it, and were convinced to believe the dogma vs how many people are Christians because they are repeating what their parents did without ever asking about the authenticity of what they believe.
you and your psychosis

Offline Baruch

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 09:04:32 AM »
My atypical example:

My parents weren't religious.  My father was irreligious in general.  My mother was and remains, minimally religious.  My mother, not my father, took me to church a very few times, as a child.  It introduced me to the concept of religion (beyond what I gleaned from the general culture and Biblical themed movies).  We never read the Bible at home, though we had several.  I only read two books of the Bible as a child, Genesis and Revelations, especially Genesis.  I had communion in church one time as child, but that time I experienced a numinous feeling afterward (something Carl Jung sought, but didn't receive).  As a teen I had a general curiosity about religion, not limited to Christianity, but covering many religions.  Also as a teen, I had been brought into the Gnostic religion called Freemasonry by my grandparents.  So as I entered adulthood, I only had a limited experience with religion, and it was mostly self-directed, out of curiosity.  I had never been made to do anything, but I had been introduced to it by adults, who lived examples of adult behavior.  Subsequent influence started when I got married ... as an adult, and under the stimulus but not compulsion of my wife, my self-direction increased exponentially, and continues post-divorce into senior-hood.

Christianity remains of interest, but I see myself as marginally Jewish, and am interested in all religions, as part of my general interest in all anthropology and psychology.
שלום

Offline aitm

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 01:20:49 PM »
I am curious to know how many people are Christian because they actually sat down and looked at all the information
very few. The vast majority of xians have never read the babble. This can easily be proven at any time by quoting a babble verse of some disgust to which the ignorant will reply angrily, "the bible does NOT say that, show me where". To which my standard reply is , "just as I thought".
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 02:28:38 PM »
Most converts are made because of emotional needs. They convert because they like what they hear. They want a community to make them feel like they belong. They feel guilty, and religion helps them to feel forgiven. Some may even be attracted to the idea of being told what to think, because trying to find your own answers takes time, energy, and effort. Christians do like to cling to arguments of logic, but only when they support the belief they already have. They do not check the validity of those arguments. Even if their logic is ripped apart by skeptics, they will continue to use it again and again. You need look no further than this forum to see that it is true. How often have you heard this argument, and how often have you seen them admit they were wrong?

"Atheists know that God is real. They're only atheists because they like to sin."

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 02:29:33 PM »
So many people go to church today because their mama did it and mama made them do it. and the reason mama did it was because grandma did it and she made mama do it.

On the other hand there are people who grow up in a Muslim or a Budhist family. Then they have some kind of experience that convinces them that Christianity is the way to go.

I am curious to know how many people are Christian because they actually sat down and looked at all the information, thought about it, and were convinced to believe the dogma vs how many people are Christians because they are repeating what their parents did without ever asking about the authenticity of what they believe.
Don't forget the huge amount of fear that figures into religion.  Fear of the unknown, fear that god will hurt them, fear that the devil will hurt,  fear of death so cover their bases with a religion, and oh so many other ways to let fear push you into 'belief'.  And all religious leaders use fear first and foremost in their messages.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Sal1981

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2017, 02:51:53 PM »
I think that the people leaning against their own faith do so, because they find their emotionally based convictions lacking; I bet you've heard them more than a dozen times: "I feel God in my heart" or "I saw a 'miracle', my cough magically disappeared" or some equally obtuse and unreasonable so-called evidence for their faith. The ones that come here to AF, I reckon, don't really believe in that stuff, because of the cognitive dissonance that follows from thinking that way. If you feel anything, it's experiential emotion way too often doesn't correlate to what other people experience and how they find how the world 'works'. And to mention 'miracles', way too often it is just happenstance variables at play - an event without the variables known - i.e. hidden/unknown variables. This is just the evidence side of things.

Socially, we often feel a need for an in-group, we have evolved socially and in groups, so this often gets fulfilled by a church or whatever congregation religious people follow and adhere to. Which leads to group-think and outside-the-box thinking is not tolerated.

It comes down to Type-2 Errors in judgement, IMO (this is the "Better safe than sorry" argument). If we, somehow, evolved for a natural detection mechanism to detect Type 2 errors, then I'll bet 100 Internets that we wouldn't have religion at all, except for fringe cases of beliefs.

Case being, we believe because we're inclined to give Agency to stuff that is immaterial and just shit that happens naturally without no Agent behind it. That our parents and/or immediate environment have faith is just a matter of circumstance, nothing to add/detract to its truth value.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2017, 07:06:26 PM »
very few. The vast majority of xians have never read the babble. This can easily be proven at any time by quoting a babble verse of some disgust to which the ignorant will reply angrily, "the bible does NOT say that, show me where". To which my standard reply is , "just as I thought".
My favorite thing is to take a Bible verse but replace God with Allah and claim it's from the Quran.  They get very upset.

You'd think people who dedicate their lives to spreading this stuff would have at least given it a read.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2017, 09:19:27 PM »
My favorite thing is to take a Bible verse but replace God with Allah and claim it's from the Quran.  They get very upset.

You'd think people who dedicate their lives to spreading this stuff would have at least given it a read.
I like that.  I had not thought of it.  I'll have to give it a try. :)
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 11:34:45 AM »
So many people go to church today because their mama did it and mama made them do it. and the reason mama did it was because grandma did it and she made mama do it.

On the other hand there are people who grow up in a Muslim or a Budhist family. Then they have some kind of experience that convinces them that Christianity is the way to go.

I am curious to know how many people are Christian because they actually sat down and looked at all the information, thought about it, and were convinced to believe the dogma vs how many people are Christians because they are repeating what their parents did without ever asking about the authenticity of what they believe.
That is exactly how I got my current beliefs, but I don't think my story is exactly what you're looking for.
This sentence is a lie...

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 11:15:25 PM »
Don't forget the huge amount of fear that figures into religion.  Fear of the unknown, fear that god will hurt them, fear that the devil will hurt,  fear of death so cover their bases with a religion, and oh so many other ways to let fear push you into 'belief'.  And all religious leaders use fear first and foremost in their messages.
No they don't

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 11:16:33 PM »
My favorite thing is to take a Bible verse but replace God with Allah and claim it's from the Quran.  They get very upset.

You'd think people who dedicate their lives to spreading this stuff would have at least given it a read.
No, I actually interchange the word Allah with GOD when I read the Quran.


Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 11:31:18 PM »
No, I actually interchange the word Allah with GOD when I read the Quran.

I mean, Allah just means god in Arabic, so I don't see what the big fuss about this is about.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 11:33:10 PM »
I mean, Allah just means god in Arabic, so I don't see what the big fuss about this is about.
Most Christian's are seemingly oblivious to the fact that the two faiths reference all the same things, including GOD.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 11:37:37 PM »
Most Christian's are seemingly oblivious to the fact that the two faiths reference all the same things, including GOD.

I don't know about that, I've read the Quran, it talks about killing the pagans and believers of other religions a bit more.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Re: Conviction or Repetition
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 11:42:48 PM »
I don't know about that, I've read the Quran, it talks about killing the pagans and believers of other religions a bit more.
But ultimately goes back to being merciful in all things.