Author Topic: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...  (Read 1850 times)

Offline Baruch (OP)

AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« on: December 31, 2016, 10:15:52 AM »
The primary problem in AI, was faced by Aristotle over 2000 years ago.  For AI (digital computer version) the problem isn't using a program to write another program.  The problem is coming up with the first seed program to start the process (a bootstrap ... you can pull your boots on by the bootstrap).  This was pointed out by Lady Ada, the first programmer.  Putting together a set of pseudo-random code lines (for a Turing Machine) won't do (see other post on problem with pseudo-random numbers ... the same problem).

For Aristotle, thinking about generic cause/effect ... he saw this as a Zeno problem of infinite regress.  Aristotle solved this by a wave of his Greek hand ... to simply say that there is no such thing as infinity (or infinite regress).  He didn't actually defeat the argument of Zeno.  By change, Aristotle was thinking of motion.  So Aristotle came up with the idea of the Unmoved-Mover.  But in fact, other than giving it a name, and declaring its rationality and existence out of nothing ... Aristotle can't define what that is.  BTW - this is Aristotle's argument for a monotheistic deity ... though an impersonal one.
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Offline pr126

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2016, 11:47:15 PM »
I have  an AI in my apartment, called Alexa.

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2017, 03:34:27 AM »
I have  an AI in my apartment, called Alexa.

People often project onto their pets and machines ... even give them names ;-)
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Offline pr126

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2017, 03:40:35 AM »
People often project onto their pets and machines ... even give them names ;-)
According to Amazon the name came as a reference to Alexandria's library.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 03:45:38 AM by pr126 »

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2017, 03:43:03 AM »
According to Amazon the name came as a reference to Alexandria's library.

That old thing?  Went up in flames millennia ago.  Doesn't sound like a very lucky product name.
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Offline pr126

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2017, 03:50:39 AM »
Nothing lasts for ever. Even gods die.

see here



« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 03:56:05 AM by pr126 »

Offline Cavebear

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2017, 05:15:49 AM »
That old thing?  Went up in flames millennia ago.  Doesn't sound like a very lucky product name.

Destroyed by SAINT Cyril, who had the brilliant female librarian, Hypatia, flayed alive.  Not "went up in flames", "burned by religious zealots".  Who despised learning as they do to this day.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2017, 05:03:04 PM »
My computer boots up every morning.   The bootstrap problem is solved.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2017, 05:20:34 PM »
When someone talks about Turing machines as if they are actual things and not abstractions used to leverage proofs, then you know you're dealing with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Turing machines do not exist. Period. They have impossible requirements (like that infinite tape). You can't even build one in the observable universe. Realizations of Turing machines will, at best, be a pale imitation to a true Turing machine.

The simple disproof of Zeno is the statement and observation, "Yet things move." Zeno was either wrong about his assumptions, or he is disproving something that doesn't actually have anything to do with real motion. Either way, he's wrong. Period.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2017, 06:03:13 PM »
People often project onto their pets and machines ... even give them names ;-)
I used to name my car.  Don't any more.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2017, 08:56:12 PM »
My computer boots up every morning.   The bootstrap problem is solved.

Haha ... yes, but someone had to put a boot sector in it, for that to happen.  The computer didn't produce its own boot sector.
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2017, 08:59:11 PM »
When someone talks about Turing machines as if they are actual things and not abstractions used to leverage proofs, then you know you're dealing with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Turing machines do not exist. Period. They have impossible requirements (like that infinite tape). You can't even build one in the observable universe. Realizations of Turing machines will, at best, be a pale imitation to a true Turing machine.

The simple disproof of Zeno is the statement and observation, "Yet things move." Zeno was either wrong about his assumptions, or he is disproving something that doesn't actually have anything to do with real motion. Either way, he's wrong. Period.

Guess you don't believe in mathematics.  And agree with Aristotle, that there are no infinities.

As far as Turing machines go .. the actual requirement is to have a tape big enough for whatever you happen to be doing at the time (it doesn't run out prematurely).  You are black/white in your thinking.  Any HS student can create a Turing machine simulation ... and can run it on some simple program (that doesn't run out of storage).  Now we have gigabytes of RAM, one would never run out of memory, unless you are in an infinite loop (in which case you are done either way).

A simple description:


Here is a simple simulator:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.ilyayudov.TM
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 09:02:38 PM by Baruch »
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Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 06:45:47 AM »
Haha ... yes, but someone had to put a boot sector in it, for that to happen.  The computer didn't produce its own boot sector.

Every single part of it was assembled by a person, including every bit in the ROM that looks for a bootable device and boots it.

Writing the first "seed program" is no different to writing any other program.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2017, 07:55:52 AM »
Every single part of it was assembled by a person, including every bit in the ROM that looks for a bootable device and boots it.

Writing the first "seed program" is no different to writing any other program.

So it is possible to do that, but have no human involved at all?
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Re: AI, Aristotle, G-d and the bootstrap problem ...
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2017, 09:23:26 AM »
No.   Because computers aren't found in nature.   
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato