Author Topic: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely  (Read 2597 times)

Offline Yadayadayada (OP)

Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« on: December 28, 2016, 05:13:54 PM »
Hello, I am hoping someone can explain the atheist viewpoint to me on the validity and probability of God's existence.

Most atheists will claim that the facts show the concept of a God to be so utterly unlikely as to be considered impossible.

But, this is not what the facts show at all.

The theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, nor can it explain the existence of life from the first organic cell onward.

How does natural selection explain the eye, for example? How can atheists claim that complex organs like the eye could have evolved, when everything we know about the eye says that it is useless unless all the components are in place at the same time.

As for reptile-mammal transition evidence, where is it in "evidence"?

What are the actual mechanics that achieve it? Not speculation, actual. Not variation in a genus [which evolutionists cling to as being evolution]. Biological changes where a living entity can be observed to be changing into something different, breaching the barriers of its DNA.

For reptiles to become mammals, that breach must have happened. So, someone please show where reptiles are in a state of doing so today - where that transition is taking place.

The facts show that what is overwhelmingly in evidence is what the Bible itself says, that like begets like, and we  all rely on that to occur in all facets of life, from growing/eating fruit and vegetables through to human/animal procreation.

It seems that the evidence supports the concept of God, rather than the atheistic claim that "God probably doesn't exist".

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2016, 05:39:31 PM »
Why should any of us go to all that trouble just to satisfy your curiosity?

None of us here cares the least little bit whether you believe in a God or not, so don't expect much work from us on your questions.
God Not Found
"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli

Offline Shiranu

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2016, 05:51:07 PM »
I'm not a fan of Richard Dawkins as a social commentator, but if you are actually interested in how that evolution works then I would say several of his books are probably the best you can find to describe it both accurately and in a way you don't have to be a biologist to understand.

"The Greatest Show on Earth" and "The Blind Watchmaker" would be great places to start and I really recommend you read these works if you want a truly comprehensive view on how it works. There are also some great science channels on youtube that can explain evolution for you. Here are just a few...







There is one last thing I want to address in your post...

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...when everything we know about the eye says that it is useless unless all the components are in place at the same time.

This is just factually wrong. My left eye has undeveloped places in the centre... but I can still see out of my left eye. I see a blur through the centre of my vision and have perfect peripherals. Likewise people with glasses also have pieces that are not all in place at the same time... but they are obviously not completely blind. Likewise as eyes evolved... it's not like these new pieces meant the animal went blind if it wasn't perfectly assembled.

"Too curious flower, watching us pass, met death; Our hungry donkey." - Basho

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." - Mahatma Gandhi

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2016, 06:17:07 PM »
The theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, nor can it explain the existence of life from the first organic cell onward.
That is correct.  The ToE has the following givens: 1) the existence of life 2) heritable genetic variety 3) selection pressures, i.e. not all offspring survive.  Plug in those givens and you get a gene pool that changes from generation to generation.

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How does natural selection explain the eye, for example?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

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How can atheists claim that complex organs like the eye could have evolved, when everything we know about the eye says that it is useless unless all the components are in place at the same time.
That's not what happens.  All-at-once evolution doesn't exist except in the minds of creationists.  And it's pretty obvious projection.

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As for reptile-mammal transition evidence, where is it in "evidence"?
Five seconds of googling could've helped you out, assuming for a moment that the question was sincere.

Quote
What are the actual mechanics that achieve it? Not speculation, actual.


I'll assume you meant "mechanisms".  Well, here's a brief intro to the idea, suitable for both children and adult creationists.

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Not variation in a genus [which evolutionists cling to as being evolution]. Biological changes where a living entity can be observed to be changing into something different, breaching the barriers of its DNA.
LOL.  An individual breaching the barriers of its DNA and metamorphosing into something else.  I'll get right on that and soon as my sides stop cramping from laughter.

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For reptiles to become mammals, that breach must have happened. So, someone please show where reptiles are in a state of doing so today - where that transition is taking place.
Modern reptiles do not become modern mammals any more than you become your cousin.

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The facts show that what is overwhelmingly in evidence is what the Bible itself says, that like begets like
That was the naive view all over the world before naturalists started digging up fossils and figuring out that a ton of species went extinct.  Christians don't own that position any more than they own geocentrism.

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and we all rely on that to occur in all facets of life, from growing/eating fruit and vegetables through to human/animal procreation.
You mean the selectively-bred and crossbred fruits and veggies?

Check out this biblical "kind":



It didn't exist until a few centuries ago.

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It seems that the evidence supports the concept of God, rather than the atheistic claim that "God probably doesn't exist".
Shooting down a laughably wrong creationist version of evolution doesn't do jack to establish the claim that a God exists, much less the Christian God.  Even if you had somehow managed to understand and falsify evolution (neither of which happened, btw), it would simply send biologists back to the drawing board to establish a new theory explaining the genetic diversity of life on Earth and the fact of speciation.

To establish your claims, you'll have to show that 1) a God exists 2) that God is the Christian God.  Anything short of that, and you're just blowing hot air and making a fool of yourself.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 06:29:12 PM by Hydra009 »

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2016, 06:22:50 PM »
Look, yada (if you mean yammeryammeryammer you are right) first you come to an atheist board and tell us we are full of shit.  And you have done that without introducing yourself.  I don't know you from adam--or cain, for that matter.  I don't care what warped ideas you carry around in your head.  If you had an ounce of manners you would introduce yourself and then get to know your way around--but you are a theist and that automatically means you lack common sense and common manners. 

You make assertions without any backup and you want somebody to do all the work.  Well fuck that.  If you were at all interested in any of what you said in your post, you could look up threads (many, many of them) from this board that tackles all of your questions and concerns.  But then, these are not really concerns of yours, are they?!  You have your beliefs screwed down tight and no 'facts' can enter there.  Bad for the soul.....................(which is also doesn't exist). 

Read some of those threads of the past (you do know how to use an index, don't you?  Well, you are a theist........................) and if you have specific questions, ask away.  I have no problems having a conversation with any theist that wants to be civil and show common manners.  Do you fit that mold???  If not, why not just move to another forum.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2016, 06:48:17 PM »
Hello, I am hoping someone can explain the atheist viewpoint to me on the validity and probability of God's existence.

Most atheists will claim that the facts show the concept of a God to be so utterly unlikely as to be considered impossible.

But, this is not what the facts show at all.

The theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, nor can it explain the existence of life from the first organic cell onward.

How does natural selection explain the eye, for example? How can atheists claim that complex organs like the eye could have evolved, when everything we know about the eye says that it is useless unless all the components are in place at the same time.

As for reptile-mammal transition evidence, where is it in "evidence"?

What are the actual mechanics that achieve it? Not speculation, actual. Not variation in a genus [which evolutionists cling to as being evolution]. Biological changes where a living entity can be observed to be changing into something different, breaching the barriers of its DNA.

For reptiles to become mammals, that breach must have happened. So, someone please show where reptiles are in a state of doing so today - where that transition is taking place.

The facts show that what is overwhelmingly in evidence is what the Bible itself says, that like begets like, and we  all rely on that to occur in all facets of life, from growing/eating fruit and vegetables through to human/animal procreation.

It seems that the evidence supports the concept of God, rather than the atheistic claim that "God probably doesn't exist".

Giving you a theistic answer to your questions ...

People use words all the time, that they don't have a clear definition of.  They think they know what a word means "in context", but do they really?  People use such words as ...

G-d, exists, proof, validity, probability, nature, concept, likely, considered, impossible, evidence ... these are difficult philosophical concepts, that should only be wielded by philosophers after decades of training, and only with the safety on ;-)  There isn't enough time to go into it.  It would all take longer than counting the grains of sand on a beech, one by one.  The dictionary isn't a very good alternative either, since there are ideological deficiencies with any dictionary (there is no neutrality in rhetoric).  So what can us average folks do?  I will let other folks post on evolution and convergent evolution, since they are more skillful in that area that I am.

So where to start?  Where did the Enlightenment go off the rails?  The Enlightenment was Sophistry 2.0.  In ancient Athens, in Sophistry 1.0 ... there were teachers of rhetoric (useful in politics and law) who for a fee, could teach you how to persuasively argue any side of any question ... aka baffle the hoi polloi with nice sounding bullshit, how to prejudicially sift evidence of truth or falsehood.  City state politics flourished for about 200 years, until first Alexander, and later Caesar, put an end to it.  This argumentativeness was silenced by authoritarianism for over a thousand years, until the rise of the first universities in the Middle Ages.  Eventually the universities, revived skepticism, both constructive and destructive, for the first time since ancient Rome.  As part of this skepticism, in ancient Greece and early modern Europe naturalism and materialism was in vogue, along with rationalism.  Naturalism rhetorically bridged the gap of not knowing what separated living from non-living things.  Once again in the absence of dampening authoritarianism, freethinking and free speech got more and more common.  Engaging in thinking and speaking/writing in the public domain is implicitly political.  And so Sophistry 2.0 came about.  What is attractive about sophistry?  Those who practice it are sophisticates of course ;-)  They also tend to come from the non-conforming parts of society just as the case with Socrates.

So all of this amounts to just so much ... yadda yadda ... whether you are a theist or not.  And if you are gullible, you will be convinced by whoever is successful marketing to you.  We are all consumers of unnecessary junk.  The Enlightenment was all about people who were not at the center of the power structure, wanting to change their relative positions more in their own favor.  But if you are an actual individual, who doesn't kow-tow to authorities ... aka you are socially marginal ... then instead of making a square hole fit your round peg, you will reshape the hole so the peg fits better (the average conformist does the opposite).

So basically, to an atheist, a theist, regardless of educational and professional background is a prima facie idiot, no different than someone who claims that the Nazca lines were designed by ancient astronauts.  This is the meta-dialog, actual evolution fact and theory don't matter.
שלום

Offline aitm

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 07:19:47 PM »
And yet at the same time, you find no curiosity that of all the gods mankind has followed and worshipped not one has actually been proven to be more beneficial to the believer than the next is to its. How odd for the one true god to be so.......invisible, unprovable and most of all, impotent.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 07:29:36 PM »
But if people are G-d's hands and feet, then it is we who make G-d impotent ;-)
שלום

Online Munch

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 08:05:02 PM »
Hello Yadayadayada (name seems ironic somehow).

As several of our fine posters here have done so, they have gone over reason and explanations to questions. Now given the chance you read some of it and learn the atheist pov, that be something. But we've had a lot of peeps come by here several times doing the same thing, and not getting the answers from the atheist pov they want.

We have had a couple of open mind chaps here and there, but really, this is down to you looking at things from another angle. Reality is, most of us here have lives life having seen different angles of faith, belief, questioning it, rationalizing things, and coming to conclusions on what faith actually is.

There is one thing the bible proves, the advancement of science and study have gone on though the ages, and it isn't any surprise certain things of a scientific nature made its way into the bible. But it came from times also when people believed in magic and waterwalking and the world flooding, the same as ancient horse men believed in a golden city in the skies where the best warriors go, or in ancient egypt where people believed there was a god of death that brought your souls to the afterlife, no proof, just heresay.

Science is a part of mankinds evolution, but myth and storytelling is part of it too, and the two things get mixed up sometimes, so its not a surprise some folks get a little confused about it.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 08:10:39 PM by Munch »

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2016, 08:22:10 PM »
But if people are G-d's hands and feet, then it is we who make G-d impotent ;-)
We can make all kinds of fictional statements about god, since god is a fiction.  Like making up stories about Daffy Duck.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Sorginak

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2016, 11:10:18 PM »
Evidence, my dear, evidence.

That is what it all boils down to.

Not faith.

Faith is not evidence, but the veritable lack thereof.

When believers state that one "must have faith" it means that one must suspend all doubt and all reason and all logic merely to have "faith" in something that cannot be proven to exist and that which no believer has proficient evidence to provide.
When I feel weak, I prefer to make myself stronger through introspection rather than resort to religion.

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2016, 11:27:37 PM »
You do know that atheism and evolution are not the same, right? There are theists who know that evolution is true. And atheists have plenty of other reasons for doubting the existence of gods, especially your Christian god. Historically, the Bible gets a lot of things wrong, including virtually every detail of Jesus' birth. For instance, there is no way there was a census that required every citizen to pick up and move to their home towns. That would be a stupid idea. All you need to know for a census is how many people there are. If you need to know where people are from, you can just ask them. If the backstory of the most important person in the Bible can't be believed, why should anything from the Bible be trusted?

As for the theory of evolution, there is a ton of evidence behind it. There is absolutely no evidence for intelligent design. Yet you think you can get away with saying "evolution can't explain _____, therefore intelligent design must be true." No. That does not follow. Many things used to be a mystery, and gods were used to explain them. Then science came and removed the need for gods. Lightning is not from Zeus. The earth is not on the back of a whale. And soon enough, we will discover how life can come from non-life, and you theists will have to retreat to yet another mystery to move the goal post to.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 07:42:14 AM by Blackleaf »

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2016, 12:18:25 AM »
You do know that atheism and evolution are not the same, right?
Very few creationists know that.  They try to refute evolution like it's some atheistic religion - they're not here to discuss science, they're here to do apologetics.   That's why we get to see theists "prove" God by disproving evolution.  They crash and burn because they never figure out what's wrong with that picture.  It's like watching an aircraft carrier launch all its planes into the ocean and then wondering why the war is going badly.

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2016, 02:27:07 AM »
How's about you introduce yourself, as is mandatory, and show an interest in THE forum.
We can have a Nice chat then.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: Why do atheists claim that the concept of God is so unlikely
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2016, 02:29:51 AM »
Hello, I am hoping someone can explain the atheist viewpoint to me on the validity and probability of God's existence.

Most atheists will claim that the facts show the concept of a God to be so utterly unlikely as to be considered impossible.

But, this is not what the facts show at all.

The theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, nor can it explain the existence of life from the first organic cell onward.

How does natural selection explain the eye, for example? How can atheists claim that complex organs like the eye could have evolved, when everything we know about the eye says that it is useless unless all the components are in place at the same time.

As for reptile-mammal transition evidence, where is it in "evidence"?

What are the actual mechanics that achieve it? Not speculation, actual. Not variation in a genus [which evolutionists cling to as being evolution]. Biological changes where a living entity can be observed to be changing into something different, breaching the barriers of its DNA.

For reptiles to become mammals, that breach must have happened. So, someone please show where reptiles are in a state of doing so today - where that transition is taking place.

The facts show that what is overwhelmingly in evidence is what the Bible itself says, that like begets like, and we  all rely on that to occur in all facets of life, from growing/eating fruit and vegetables through to human/animal procreation.

It seems that the evidence supports the concept of God, rather than the atheistic claim that "God probably doesn't exist".


Because shutup.