the american delusion

[Jannabear]

the Idea that america is a protector of democracy around the world is quite literally more delusional then believing nazi germany was for equality and socialism
The country that has backed an uncountable amount of fascist dictators and even has backed feudalist states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5rVD_TXrjo
Just to name a few.

[Shiranu]

...quite literally more delusional then believing nazi germany was for equality and socialism...

I actually completely agree with the premise of your post... but when you bring Nazi's into it the entire argument just feels limp... regardless of how true or poignant it might be. Bringing the Nazi's into it just makes it sound like an overreaction rather than a valid point.

[Sorginak]

Ignore the Nazi supporters. 

[Baruch]

There are no true democracies, not even Ancient Athens.

[SGOS]

The country [USA] that has backed an uncountable amount of fascist dictators and even has backed feudalist states

When you want to do business with another country, be it buying oil, or, or,... well, buying oil, you have to deal with the leader.  You don't strike a deal with the peasants.  If the leader is a dictator, you have to pay the money to him.  Dictators tend to keep the money for themselves, and this pisses people off, and the dictator kills people off when they get mad.  But the oil industry wants that oil, so they bribe our politicians to support ruthless dictators, less he not sell us his oil.  But of course he will sell us his oil.  He'll sell anyone his oil, so one wonders why we do dictators favors, I suppose.

[Jannabear]

When you want to do business with another country, be it buying oil, or, or,... well, buying oil, you have to deal with the leader.  You don't strike a deal with the peasants.  If the leader is a dictator, you have to pay the money to him.  Dictators tend to keep the money for themselves, and this pisses people off, and the dictator kills people off when they get mad.  But the oil industry wants that oil, so they bribe our politicians to support ruthless dictators, less he not sell us his oil.  But of course he will sell us his oil.  He'll sell anyone his oil, so one wonders why we do dictators favors, I suppose.

No, the us has DIRECTLY financially and cooperatively backed military dictatorships.

[SGOS]

No, the us has DIRECTLY financially and cooperatively backed military dictatorships.

What is your point?

[Baruch]

What is your point?

Perhaps Jannabear is still confused by the white hat/black hat narrative.  Americans are supposed to do X, but not supposed to do Y.  Adulthood really sucks, you find out anything you were told by your parents or society, in any society ... is propaganda.

[Hakurei Reimu]

No, the us has DIRECTLY financially and cooperatively backed military dictatorships.

Yes, because we want something out of them, and we want it so badly we're willing to pay the price in treasure and other people's blood. Unfortunately, that is how we get nice things. Can we do a better job? Probably, but not without some real moral fortitude on the part of the majority of people and their elected politicians not to have nice things for a while. That's something our country has been lacking in recently.

[Baruch]

People have never as a rule, been a willing sacrifice ... unless they are forced to.

[Shiranu]

Yes, because we want something out of them, and we want it so badly we're willing to pay the price in treasure and other people's blood. Unfortunately, that is how we get nice things. Can we do a better job? Probably, but not without some real moral fortitude on the part of the majority of people and their elected politicians not to have nice things for a while. That's something our country has been lacking in recently.

I try to buy predominately fair-trade and farmer market... and while it is more of a struggle economically it is not all that more expensive. Likewise making so much of the shit we buy cheap now... if it was made here would not be significantly more expensive (plus would bring production jobs back to the states).

I really don't think cheap things and luxuries would be much of a sacrifice for the average Joe... just the rich CEO who get's a few extra million in his pocket thanks to cheap labour in China or El Salvador.

[Sorginak]

I cannot even support the small people anymore, especially those "small" people who are in the health food business.  They raised their prices for competition.  It does not cost a fortune to be healthy.

I can do Save-a-Lot, and something to that equivalent. 

[Baruch]

I try to buy predominately fair-trade and farmer market... and while it is more of a struggle economically it is not all that more expensive. Likewise making so much of the shit we buy cheap now... if it was made here would not be significantly more expensive (plus would bring production jobs back to the states).

I really don't think cheap things and luxuries would be much of a sacrifice for the average Joe... just the rich CEO who get's a few extra million in his pocket thanks to cheap labour in China or El Salvador.

Here is their argument ... If I produce a thing for 1 cent less, multiplied by millions of them, then the economy saves billions, but as my take of those savings, I will pocket a couple million, because I am so so damn brilliant.  Tragedy of the commons done on an industrial scale ... same as privatizing common land in England under the more recent kings.  If we throw a thousand people out of work, averaged over ... more than 300 million, that isn't much of a cost to pay, unless you actually are the one who lost your job.  A thousand people lose their job, but it is sold as each person in the whole country losing 1% of 1% of a job each.  Capitalism means minimizing costs, even if it means throwing everyone out of work ... but with no consumers left, that is kind of a contradiction.  This is an externalized version of the instability I mentioned before.

[Baruch]

I cannot even support the small people anymore, especially those "small" people who are in the health food business.  They raised their prices for competition.  It does not cost a fortune to be healthy.

I can do Save-a-Lot, and something to that equivalent.

You have to change what you eat ... I am eating a lot of cabbage now, for my health.  Fortunately I can digest it.  I could use organic sawdust instead, but you are right, it is not only expensive, but it tastes bad ;-)  This is why the Matrix pushed "eat more bugs" all this past year.  They only see people as walking roach motels.

[Sorginak]

You have to change what you eat ... I am eating a lot of cabbage now, for my health.  Fortunately I can digest it.  I could use organic sawdust instead, but you are right, it is not only expensive, but it tastes bad ;-)  This is why the Matrix pushed "eat more bugs" all this past year.  They only see people as walking roach motels.

It is always cheaper to grow one's own vegetables. 

Capitalism steps in when one does not have the means to grow those vegetables on one's own.

City people, those who live in apartment type buildings in particular, are the ones who suffer the most.  However, not necessarily.

Vegetables tend to be cheaper than anything else in the store.

I do not need a five dollar bag of chips, after all, though tell that to those who spend that much.

I would rather use that five dollars on healthy food, so long as the food comes from the store I prefer is not corporate or an overpriced health food establishment.