Jesus' Origin Story

[Mike Cl]

Sophists define and redefine as necessary .. but honest people don't.  Some people love nature (minus humans) some love humans (minus nature) ... I love both.  But since I am not a tree, and am kindred to you and the other ape people ... I find ape people more relevant.

As for proof, the denial of evidence, trumps any claims.  Or better yet, just ignore anyone who makes any claims.  I don't need proof to find my way to the lavatory.  I already know where it is.  Again, as in the NT itself, Pharisees demand miracles of Jesus (and I think he had none, if he was a real person) ... in the sense that you and the Pharisees mean it.  You are a secular Pharisee, not that there is anything wrong with that.  Your standard of proof and that of the Pharisees is different.  And of course, we are speaking of a story, not something that actually happened.  But the attitude of the people in the story, and actual people, that is real.

I love and hate all of nature and all of humanity.  I love the beauty of nature--it cannot be surpassed.  I hate the cruelty of nature; love the lioness, love the gazelle--hate it when the lioness kills the gazelle; but that is nature.  Same with humanity--love some people hate others.  Religion is not needed, either in nature or humanity.  It is not something that is helpful, beautiful or necessary.  It simply produces destruction.  I would love to ignore it--but it will not let me; it tries to control all aspects of my being, both actions and thoughts.  I do not demand miracles from the personages or stories of its fiction. 

As in all things, there is not all bad in religion or it's stories.  There are good allegorical lessons in the bible; there is good advice as well.  But when all is added together and weighted, the bad far outweighs the good.  And none of the good allegorical lessons  or good advice are unique to religion; those lessons and advice can be gotten elsewhere; so religion is not even necessary for that.

[Mike Cl]

There are atheist Hindus and Buddhists ... so nothing wrong with an impersonal absolute.  Physicists who are not even religious, believe in impersonal absolutes too ... that is the key that ties that all together.  I simply don't see reality as impersonal ... I am a person myself after all.  It would be like a statue trying to imagine what being a real human is like.  Reductionism, which is the inevitable outcome of fundamentalist epistemology, is necessarily materialist and impersonal ... unless you think that atoms are little people ;-)

Yes, there are atheist Hindus and Buddhists.  That's why I shy from using that label and prefer to use nonbeliever.  I don't believe there is any 'power' in the universe that is unnatural.  And there is no other life after I start the process of becoming 'little people'--atoms.  And no, it is nothing like being a statue.  I am free to go and interact with the universe as I see fit--and yes, I have to take the consequences of those interactions, both good and bad, or even indifferent.  The universe is impersonal and material.  That is not a bad thing; that is not a good thing; it just is. 

[Baruch]

Well ... you don't have to be so impersonal about it ;-)

Everyone finds their own truth in their own heart ... other people just act as stimulus and inhibition.  That and try giving up some of that hate.  I have to work at it too, but it is worthwhile work.  Human existence is a love/hate thing ... love more, hate less.

[aitm]

I have backing from before written word that spans all the earth and time.

you have shit. Made up bull-shit, proven to be bullshit. Stamped and approved by idiots. Good job, you impressed yourself. Hoo-rah! Your god has been proven to be as real as all the thousands of the other made up bullshit gods. And all you can do is,but...but....but I BELIEVE!!! booyah.

[popsthebuilder]

you have shit. Made up bull-shit, proven to be bullshit. Stamped and approved by idiots. Good job, you impressed yourself. Hoo-rah! Your god has been proven to be as real as all the thousands of the other made up bullshit gods. And all you can do is,but...but....but I BELIEVE!!! booyah.

Uhm... What?

Surely you aren't that dumb.

Have you heard of the Baha'i faith or the understanding that all different names for the benevolent creator GOD are just that, different names for the same single GOD.

No need to be so grumpy or bigheaded

peace

[aitm]

Have you heard of the Baha'i faith or the understanding that all different names for the benevolent creator GOD are just that, different names for the same GOD

Bullshit. Saying it as fact is not the same as it actually being fact. You have already proved you prefer made up bullshit so this bullshit is nothing more than you pretending that because you said it, it actually is true. It is not....it's bullshit. Read a real book boy.

[widdershins]

Uhm... What?

Surely you aren't that dumb.

Have you heard of the Baha'i faith or the understanding that all different names for the benevolent creator GOD are just that, different names for the same single GOD.

No need to be so grumpy or bigheaded

peace

That is your belief.  Jehovah's Witnesses believe they worship a physically different God than other Christians.  They believe this even though their Bibles are derived from the same scrolls and have the same actors.  You are saying, "Their beliefs are wrong, mine are right", but that's exactly what they would say about you.  So PROVE IT!

[popsthebuilder]

That is your belief.  Jehovah's Witnesses believe they worship a physically different God than other Christians.  They believe this even though their Bibles are derived from the same scrolls and have the same actors.  You are saying, "Their beliefs are wrong, mine are right", but that's exactly what they would say about you.  So PROVE IT!

I've said nobody's  beliefs are wrong and only mine are right.

Your making shit up still

[Blackleaf]

I've said nobody's  beliefs are wrong and only mine are right.

Your making shit up still

Their beliefs are that you are wrong. Obviously, they can't all be right when there are contradictions. And even if there were no contradictions in their beliefs, you would still have the burden of proof.

[Blackleaf]

Ah, but you are giving personal testimony about your POV.  That must be unreliable.  So what is your true POV ... and convey it to us without writing it, because then that is personal testimony about personal testimony.  More than Cretans are liars ;-)  And yes, your straw man G-d is unreal, but then you knew that already.

Even if whatever god you believe in turned out to be real, it might as well be fiction. If it's not omnipresent, it's unreachable. If it's not omnipotent, then it can't help. If it's not omniscient, you can't rely on it as an authority of knowledge and wisdom. If it's not personal, then your life is unaffected by it. Without these qualities, god serves no purpose in our universe, and its existence is completely inconsequential.

[Unbeliever]

thankfully he had tens of thousands willing to murder the fucks what wouldn't accept his blessed teachings of peace, or "he" would have gone the way of the Poseidon. Nothing says peace like killing all the people, raping and selling the kids into slavery and proclaiming god as the one true lord of peace.

"Thank you jebus for murdering all my family and neighbors so that I could be sold off to slavery and raped and forced to accept you. amen"

Yeah. I think praying to a rat is more beneficial.

Jesus said himself (according to Matthew 10:34-37) that he didn't come to bring peace, so any Christians who believe he did are just deluded:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I know that the vast majority of Christians have never read the NT, so they can be told anything at all about it and just believe it merely because some preacher said so.

[Baruch]

However thanks to the Protestant reformation, Christians and others can now read the Bible without knowing Latin first ;-)

Blackleaf ... your anti-theology dogma ... are you counting how many demons can dance on the head of an un-pin? ;-)

[Cavebear]

Shouldn't they actually know Aramaic or something like that?

[Baruch]

Shouldn't they actually know Aramaic or something like that?

Christians vs Bible ... they need three Jewish languages ... Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Judeo-Greek.  The smallest part is in Aramaic, which is very similar to Biblical Hebrew.  Judo-Greek is the next largest part ... it is like Hellenistic Greek, but with Jewish concepts rather than pagan concepts, so the semantics and vocabulary are different, think Yiddish vs German.  And Biblical Hebrew is the largest part ... it is similar to Arabic.

[Cavebear]

Christians vs Bible ... they need three Jewish languages ... Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Judeo-Greek.  The smallest part is in Aramaic, which is very similar to Biblical Hebrew.  Judo-Greek is the next largest part ... it is like Hellenistic Greek, but with Jewish concepts rather than pagan concepts, so the semantics and vocabulary are different, think Yiddish vs German.  And Biblical Hebrew is the largest part ... it is similar to Arabic.

And yet just above, you were demanding knowing Latin.  Not very consistent.  Tsk, tsk...