Author Topic: Jesus' Origin Story  (Read 3034 times)

Online Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2017, 10:54:36 AM »
Yeah, just consider the name 'Jesus' (or Joshua in earlier stories of this culture) means savior.  So, this hero's name was not Fred, or Jack or Rufus, but Jesus--Savior.  Wow, how original--how convenient.  How idiotic, how obvious.

G-d saves ... but in Greek, Soter ... in Latin ... Salvator ... the first is a title of the Ptolomaic kings of Egypt, the second is a title of Roman Emperors, Augustus in particular.  They didn't think it was idiotic or obvious.  What was incredible to ancient pagans, was the idea that a savior could be an illiterate Jewish carpenter in now-wheres-ville Galilee.  In Greco-Roman culture, you had to be a heroic figure like Achilles or Augustus, or in Egypt a pharaoh like Cleopatra.  We continue with hero worship in modern culture ... the Kennedy family Bush family, the Clinton family, the Obama family in general, and now The Donald ... who does meet the plutocratic criteria for one kind of hero worship.  We can only hope he isn't also a Nero.
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Online Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2017, 10:56:24 AM »
You conflate the misdirection of man with the direction GOD desires of life and creation.

I would contend that while G-d may lean marginally toward life, She is the Lady of Life and Death.
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Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2017, 11:52:35 AM »
G-d saves ... but in Greek, Soter ... in Latin ... Salvator ... the first is a title of the Ptolomaic kings of Egypt, the second is a title of Roman Emperors, Augustus in particular.  They didn't think it was idiotic or obvious.  What was incredible to ancient pagans, was the idea that a savior could be an illiterate Jewish carpenter in now-wheres-ville Galilee.  In Greco-Roman culture, you had to be a heroic figure like Achilles or Augustus, or in Egypt a pharaoh like Cleopatra.  We continue with hero worship in modern culture ... the Kennedy family Bush family, the Clinton family, the Obama family in general, and now The Donald ... who does meet the plutocratic criteria for one kind of hero worship.  We can only hope he isn't also a Nero.
G-d saves??  What, green stamps????

The idiotic was really referring to Pops.  I see almost a natural flow from the nomadic scapegoating, to Joshua actually delivering the fictional 40 year wanders into the Promise Land.  Moses saw the land but did not get there.  And so, the yearning of a new deliverer or savior is where Jesus comes in.  It's all the same story and hero.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline aitm

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2017, 02:16:57 PM »
You conflate the misdirection of man with the direction GOD desires of life and creation.

To you. The reality is that your version of god and your fairy tale jebus character would have been nothing but a footnote, except that one person was willing to kill the two who did not believe him and then ten killed 20 and so it began until thousands murdered thousands. The only reason christianity has a following of less than a 1/3 of the world is because people killed other people. Left alone, jebus convinced only one...himself. So, yeah, your support of the piece of shit god that you do, makes you complicit in the death of millions.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2017, 03:08:09 PM »
To you. The reality is that your version of god and your fairy tale jebus character would have been nothing but a footnote, except that one person was willing to kill the two who did not believe him and then ten killed 20 and so it began until thousands murdered thousands. The only reason christianity has a following of less than a 1/3 of the world is because people killed other people. Left alone, jebus convinced only one...himself. So, yeah, your support of the piece of shit god that you do, makes you complicit in the death of millions.
Wow...You sound like mikeci...Confused and accusing from ignorance....Good job

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2017, 03:15:35 PM »
Wow...You sound like mikeci...Confused and accusing from ignorance....Good job

And you sound like every other theist moron with a talent for dodging questions.

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2017, 03:17:44 PM »
And you sound like every other theist moron with a talent for dodging questions.
I didn't mean to dodge anything.

Plainly state your question and I will do my very best to plainly answer it

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2017, 03:29:33 PM »
I didn't mean to dodge anything.

Plainly state your question and I will do my very best to plainly answer it

Pops, despite your 461 posts in these forums, I still have no idea what it is you actually believe. From what I've seen, it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't get you, either. I very often see you say what you don't believe when we attempt to prove you wrong, but you don't give much clarity on what it is you do believe. You have a talent of skirting around difficult subjects rather than giving your opinions on them.

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2017, 03:40:57 PM »
Come to think of it, I don't understand what Baruch believes either. I gave up trying to figure him out a long time ago. However, I can tell from the way he talks that he is educated and probably better equipped to debate on theology than I am. I have a kind of respect for him because of that, despite everything he says seeming like an alien language to me.

Offline aitm

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2017, 05:06:54 PM »
Wow...You sound like mikeci...Confused and accusing from ignorance....Good job

I have history's full backing. You have your opinion. Good job, you have impressed yourself and some retarded sunday school students. Good for you.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Online Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2017, 05:14:02 PM »
G-d saves??  What, green stamps????

The idiotic was really referring to Pops.  I see almost a natural flow from the nomadic scapegoating, to Joshua actually delivering the fictional 40 year wanders into the Promise Land.  Moses saw the land but did not get there.  And so, the yearning of a new deliverer or savior is where Jesus comes in.  It's all the same story and hero.

I wasn't literalizing the ideology.  But it wasn't fake then or now, in terms of people believing things.  Most Romans considered Augustus to be a savior, if not a god.
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Online Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2017, 05:20:21 PM »
Come to think of it, I don't understand what Baruch believes either. I gave up trying to figure him out a long time ago. However, I can tell from the way he talks that he is educated and probably better equipped to debate on theology than I am. I have a kind of respect for him because of that, despite everything he says seeming like an alien language to me.

There is a difference between ignorance and knowledge.  And between knowledge and understanding.  I have knowledge on a lot of things, but understanding of only a few things.  Things that I have personal experience with, simply are not dismissible by me.  And I am respectful enough of others, or try to be ... to accept their personal experience, and try to be patient with how they articulate it.  When they speak third hand, then they are out on a limb.  Unless it is contemporary testimony, it is pretty much questionable, and nearly so if we can't cross-examine the witness.  So with Randy, I can't give a rats ass what some Church Father thought 1500 years ago.  That was that guy's problem, back then.  Irrelevant.  Where I have an experience, that someone else had, I can understand them, better with a contemporary, than someone long ago, and possibly articulate my similar experience better than they can aka theology.
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Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2017, 06:58:49 PM »


Pops, despite your 461 posts in these forums, I still have no idea what it is you actually believe. From what I've seen, it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't get you, either. I very often see you say what you don't believe when we attempt to prove you wrong, but you don't give much clarity on what it is you do believe. You have a talent of skirting around difficult subjects rather than giving your opinions on them.

It is not my intention to "skirt" around any difficult subject.

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2017, 07:05:15 PM »
I have history's full backing. You have your opinion. Good job, you have impressed yourself and some retarded sunday school students. Good for you.
What. I have backing from before written word that spans all the earth and time. You think faith in a higher power is some new thing? People may not have been as technologically advanced way back when, but they knew the obvious; that being that did not create themselves or the majesty of their habitat. We can call it nature if it makes you feel better. It's all the same. There is a source and it does care about what IT formed.

There is no real evidence for true randomness or coincidences/chance. Why believe in them and life from non life, but not a creative giving force?

Probably slightly off topic

Online Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2017, 07:01:27 AM »
The atheist regulars don't believe in personal testimony that they can cross-examine, don't believe in ancient testimony either that they can't cross-examine.  New or old subjectivity doesn't meet their epistemological concerns.  One thing that make me a theist, is my open epistemology.  Carefully reproducible experimental quantitative evidence, or perception derived from that, is the narrowest rational epistemology.  Controlled observation or controlled experiment.  So we know in that way, that there is a phenomena (not a neumena) out there, that we call an electron, and we know its mass and other physical properties, because specialists can repeatedly measure them in a controlled way.  The existence of the electron was a surprise however, in the Victorian universe, charge was thought to be a continuum.

So within that general epistemology, personal testimony isn't worth much, and that is what you and I have, and frankly what I find interesting.  For them it isn't even interesting.  Naturalism vs humanism.
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