Jesus' Origin Story

[trdsf]

Well, that makes reading unnecessary.

It also renders the bible, the priesthood, and organized religion unnecessary.  And if it does come from within, why are there so many millions of different "within"s?  Even if you sit down two adherents of the same sect, you will be hard-pressed to find two that agree either with all the doctrines of their church, or even with each other.

It's so much easier to cut out the middleman and declare that our understanding of rights and morality is a product of our evolution, our culture, and our education, and that the definitions of 'rights' and 'morality' do change with time -- we know they do, we have the historical record that shows they have, in all cultures.

[Baruch]

It also renders the bible, the priesthood, and organized religion unnecessary.  And if it does come from within, why are there so many millions of different "within"s?  Even if you sit down two adherents of the same sect, you will be hard-pressed to find two that agree either with all the doctrines of their church, or even with each other.

It's so much easier to cut out the middleman and declare that our understanding of rights and morality is a product of our evolution, our culture, and our education, and that the definitions of 'rights' and 'morality' do change with time -- we know they do, we have the historical record that shows they have, in all cultures.

Yes our rights are American cultural matrix.  Same as killing all Jews is German cultural matrix.  There are no inalienable anythings.  You can elevate the individual over the group, or the group over the individual ... but either way it is arbitrary.  Generally, most of the time, in most societies ... the individual is subordinated to the group.  This is pre-fascist ... it is true going back to wandering tribes.  But nobody here should cheer the elevation of the group over the individual, for obvious reasons.

[popsthebuilder]

Well, that makes reading unnecessary.

Not in the least.

Re-edification, verification, remembrance; there are inumeral reasons for the sacred writings of ancient man and those of our day.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

It also renders the bible, the priesthood, and organized religion unnecessary.  And if it does come from within, why are there so many millions of different "within"s?  Even if you sit down two adherents of the same sect, you will be hard-pressed to find two that agree either with all the doctrines of their church, or even with each other.

It's so much easier to cut out the middleman and declare that our understanding of rights and morality is a product of our evolution, our culture, and our education, and that the definitions of 'rights' and 'morality' do change with time -- we know they do, we have the historical record that shows they have, in all cultures.

Not at all; these churches and the congregations are a much needed help to native communities and those abroad as well. A gathering place for the faithful to organize too has a multitude of positive potentialities. I will not deny that they too have very negative potential as well. I do not agree with political power being intertwined with the congregation. The division of church and state is a thing taught by the Christ. We need not wonder why, given the atrocities that have taken place in the past either due to the church directly, or due in part by blind eyes being turned by those with the potential to change things.

Disorganization of the religious would bring about chaos on a multitude of levels for different reasons. It isn't feasible.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[Blackleaf]

Not in the least.

Re-edification, verification, remembrance; there are inumeral reasons for the sacred writings of ancient man and those of our day.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Yes. I get very edified from passages such as these:

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (Leviticus 20:13)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, with all their heart and soul. All who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy  22:20-21)

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. (Deuteronomy 13:6-11)

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. "Get out of here, baldy!" they said. "Get out of here, baldy!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. (2 Kings 2:23-24)

By the word of the Lord one of the company of the prophets said to his companion, “Strike me with your weapon,” but he refused.

So the prophet said, "Because you have not obeyed the Lord, as soon as you leave me a lion will kill you." And after the man went away, a lion found him and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36)

"Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a birdâ€"
    no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
Even if they rear children,
    I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
    when I turn away from them!
I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre,
    planted in a pleasant place.
But Ephraim will bring out
    their children to the slayer."
Give them, Lordâ€"
    what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
    and breasts that are dry.
"Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal,
    I hated them there.
Because of their sinful deeds,
    I will drive them out of my house.
I will no longer love them;
    all their leaders are rebellious.
Ephraim is blighted,
    their root is withered,
    they yield no fruit.
Even if they bear children,
    I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:11-16)

Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
    all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
    their houses will be looted and their wives violated.
See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
    who do not care for silver
    and have no delight in gold.
Their bows will strike down the young men;
    they will have no mercy on infants,
    nor will they look with compassion on children. (Isaiah 13:15-18)

[trdsf]

Disorganization of the religious would bring about chaos on a multitude of levels for different reasons. It isn't feasible.

That's a tacit admission that one can't know the will of 'god' "in their individual life", as you put it.  Assuming this 'god' has only one will and everyone can know it individually, where would the chaos come from?

The flip side is, if everyone's understanding of 'god' is individual, how is that different from everyone making it up for themselves?  In that case, faith is like fanfic -- emphasize the stuff in the original you like best, add your own touches, and ignore the parts that conflict with what you want it to be.

[popsthebuilder]

That's a tacit admission that one can't know the will of 'god' "in their individual life", as you put it.  Assuming this 'god' has only one will and everyone can know it individually, where would the chaos come from?

The flip side is, if everyone's understanding of 'god' is individual, how is that different from everyone making it up for themselves?  In that case, faith is like fanfic -- emphasize the stuff in the original you like best, add your own touches, and ignore the parts that conflict with what you want it to be.

Seemingly; not all have the capacity to know the will of GOD in their individual life. That isn't the case for some, but it is obvious that the vast majority are lead around like blind sheep. The church is a support and aid for exponential multitudes. Take that away and see where the chaos comes from.
Everyone is an individual. That being the case; the will of GOD in their personal life can vary though the Will of GOD is without variance.

There is a difference in making up what you want and keeping some things or doctrines one likes from a denomination or particular verses of scripture while throwing out the rest. The conscience isn't variable nor is what is good and right. Though people may have different individual tasks or tests or trials, or blessings; the will of GOD towards all mankind and life in general doesn't change.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[Mike Cl]

Seemingly; not all have the capacity to know the will of GOD in their individual life.

faith in selfless unity for good

Is that not the fault of your fictional god????  According to your view, your god should have created every person with the capacity to know the will of god; how else can your god figure out who is good and who is bad????

[Blackleaf]

I remember teachers in church using that comparison all the time. People are sheep, and sheep are stupid. But the difference between a shepherd and God is that the shepherd didn't make his sheep stupid by design.

[popsthebuilder]

It isn't that they are stupid. It is that they have a choice and most choose greed over what is good and right. This isn't wholly their own fault in cases though; and in said cases, such individual​s won't be held accountable. I speak of the "sheep"; whereas the false "Shepherd" will be accountable for knowingly leading the flock astray.

faith in selfless unity for good

[Baruch]

I remember teachers in church using that comparison all the time. People are sheep, and sheep are stupid. But the difference between a shepherd and God is that the shepherd didn't make his sheep stupid by design.

Not wild sheep.  Domestic sheep etc are the result of human intervention.  The domestic sheep is to stupid by design, makes it easier to fleece him ;-)

[Baruch]

It isn't that they are stupid. It is that they have a choice and most choose greed over what is good and right. This isn't wholly their own fault in cases though; and in said cases, such individual​s won't be held accountable. I speak of the "sheep"; whereas the false "Shepherd" will be accountable for knowingly leading the flock astray.

faith in selfless unity for good

Politicians bear a heavy guilt.

[Mike Cl]

It isn't that they are stupid. It is that they have a choice and most choose greed over what is good and right. This isn't wholly their own fault in cases though; and in said cases, such individual​s won't be held accountable. I speak of the "sheep"; whereas the false "Shepherd" will be accountable for knowingly leading the flock astray.

faith in selfless unity for good

You did not address my point.  And it is amazing how clearly you see all this and hardly anybody else does.  Your creator god--as you describe it--is just so amazingly inept in it's creation.

[popsthebuilder]

You did not address my point.  And it is amazing how clearly you see all this and hardly anybody else does.  Your creator god--as you describe it--is just so amazingly inept in it's creation.

What was your question again?

Sorry.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[trdsf]

Seemingly; not all have the capacity to know the will of GOD in their individual life.

Whose fault is that?  Someone who simply does not have the capacity cannot be ethically responsible for that lack.

That isn't the case for some, but it is obvious that the vast majority are lead around like blind sheep. The church is a support and aid for exponential multitudes. Take that away and see where the chaos comes from.

Take that away and replace it with education and see how far we can go.  I relish the idea of a world without superstitions shoved into children's brains while they're too young to understand the difference between reality and fantasy.

Everyone is an individual. That being the case; the will of GOD in their personal life can vary though the Will of GOD is without variance.

Which is functionally the equivalent of being able to make it up for yourself.  If the alleged will of god is without variance, it should be obvious and accessible.

There is a difference in making up what you want and keeping some things or doctrines one likes from a denomination or particular verses of scripture while throwing out the rest. The conscience isn't variable nor is what is good and right. Though people may have different individual tasks or tests or trials, or blessings; the will of GOD towards all mankind and life in general doesn't change.

If you look back even at just the bible, what is good and right has changed drastically over time.  The book condones slavery, capital punishment for extramarital sex -- which is a profound contradiction of 'thou shalt not kill', polygyny, and women being forced to marry their rapists.  This was considered 'good and right'.  It clearly is no longer, and I would not want to meet someone who actually practiced their life strictly according to biblical laws.

And at no point does this 'god' say that these things are wrong -- and since there have been no further additions to the bible in over a millennium and a half, he's still silent on the matter.  The change has been social, not divinely ordered.  We don't need a god to tell us how to do better, we can figure that out on our own.  Slowly and clumsily, maybe, but we do advance.