Author Topic: Jesus' Origin Story  (Read 6224 times)

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Jesus' Origin Story
« on: December 21, 2016, 06:00:15 PM »
During this time of year, one of the most common sights is the Nativity Scene. Whether at the numerous churches (especially in the Bible Belt, where I live), or as Christmas decorations outside and inside of homes. So I started to wonder to myself this year: just how much BS does Jesus' origin story have? I already knew of a few details that were blatantly false, but taking the assumption that Jesus actually existed, how much of his story could have actually been true?

First, when was Jesus born? It is clear that Jesus was not born in the split between BC and AD. Since the Bible claims that King Herod was reigning at the time of Jesus' birth, and King Herod died in 4 BC, Jesus had to have been born before then. As for the star that appeared over Bethlehem, there are too many possible explanations for what could have caused this "new star" to appear in the sky, such as planetary alignments or supernovas, to peg Jesus' birth to specific year. But contrary to what Christians claim, Jesus' birth (if it happened at all) did not likely occur in 1AD.

Also, Jesus was not born in December. Not only would it have been terrible for Herod to force every citizen to travel in the winter (more on that later), details in the Bible point to Jesus' birth occurring during one of the warmer months. No shepherd would have willingly froze his balls off watching his sheep munch on dead grass in the middle of the night. The December date was decided on because of a Jewish tradition, in which righteous men died on the same day of their conception. Jesus died in March, therefore, he was assumed to have been born nine months later in December. Sorry, Christians, but if you're going to say that Jesus is the reason for the season, at least claim the right season. Try Spring or Summer.

Next, who visited Jesus? According to tradition, Jesus was visited by three wise men, or kings, or magi, from the East. The Bible gives no such number, but like many details of Jesus' origin story, it was added later and weakens the credibility of the story. Number of visitors aside, I find it rather suspicious that foreign men of such importance would be familiar enough with Jewish prophecies (even more so than the Jews, apparently) to willingly pack up their things and go to worship the "king of the Jews." Somehow, they supposedly followed an astrological object, not only to a specific town, but to a specific house. Not only that, but these three kings conveniently didn't bother to identify themselves, making it impossible to verify the story by tracking them down. This entire part of the story smells strongly of bovine manure.

Did Jesus' parents really have to travel for a census? Just think about this for a moment. The king of the civilized world decides to count all of the citizens underneath him. And he decides that the best way to do this is to require all of the men to travel to their place of birth? Why not leave them where they are and just ask them where they are from? How is their place of origin even relevant for a census? Requiring so many people to travel all at once would have been a terrible and stupid idea. And of course, there is no evidence that such a thing ever happened. This was clearly a storytelling trick to force Jesus' parents to go to Bethlehem so that Jesus could be born there and fulfill a prophecy.

Did Mary and Joseph really have to escape from Herod? According to the Bible, Jesus' parents were warned by the wise men/magi/kings that Herod considered Jesus a threat, and advised that they flee for their safety. An angel even appeared before Joseph to give him the same message. Then Herod had every boy in Bethlehem under the age of two to be slaughtered. However, despite King Herod being despised by many people, no historians ever recounted him ordering an entire townful of male babies and infants to be killed. And besides, why would an unbeliever like Herod feel threatened by a baby of a carpenter anyway? Unless he believed that the boy was destined to rise up and replace him as ruler, which he had no reason to suspect as someone who was not a Jew and likely saw many false Messiahs rise and fall.

Other details added to the story later, which were likely untrue, include Mary and Joseph being turned away at an inn. Inns only existed on major roads, not inside little insignificant cities like Bethlehem. The Greek word "kataluma," was mistranslated as "inn," when it's usually used to describe a guest room, such as the one where the Last Supper took place in. People also wrongly assume that Jesus was born in a barn. The place was more akin to a kitchen. The lower floor was for the animals, yes, but there was an upper floor for the people.

It can also be implied from details in the Bible that the wise men did not appear until two years after Jesus' birth. The wise men were also not likely to be the respected symbols they're portrayed to be, but were more like traveling salesmen who were typically viewed as shady. The gifts of frankincense and myrrh were even common Aphrodisiacs.

Mary's virgin birth was not declared official Christian dogma until 1854. Before Pope Pius IX made it canon, the idea was first held by a small cult.

Oxes and asses were also never mentioned in the original stories, but were added later to fit Old Testament prophecy. Many other animals were also added over the years just for the sake of it, including a camel, an eagle, a leopard, and more.

So in conclusion, the entire origin story of Jesus is a load of bologna. It started so in its conception (pun intended), and evolved to be more and more unlikely as Christians added and took away details of the story. What do you think? Are there any other BS details of Jesus' backstory that don't hold up under scrutiny that I didn't talk about?

References:

http://www.livescience.com/49228-nativity-story-facts-history.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_21986_6-things-people-get-wrong-about-bibles-christmas-story.html
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 06:12:05 PM »
but taking the assumption that Jesus actually existed, how much of his story could have actually been true?

Apparently, as I understand it, he couldn't have been born after the death of Herod the Great in 4 BCE, and he couldn't have been born before the census of Quirinius in 6 CE.

So, I conclude that he was never born at all.


Is this a fallacy?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 06:19:06 PM by Unbeliever »
God Not Found
"FRAUD. The life of commerce, the soul of religion, the bait of courtship, and the basis of political power."
Ambrose Bierce

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 06:46:47 PM »
Apparently, as I understand it, he couldn't have been born after the death of Herod the Great in 4 BCE, and he couldn't have been born before the census of Quirinius in 6 CE.

So, I conclude that he was never born at all.


Is this a fallacy?

That is quite a pickle. But then again, God does exist outside of time and space, so maybe he was born in 6 AD and then entered a time loop and magically appeared in Mary's arms before 4 BC.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 07:04:27 PM »
Yeah, maybe Jesus was a time lord!






God Not Found
"FRAUD. The life of commerce, the soul of religion, the bait of courtship, and the basis of political power."
Ambrose Bierce

Offline Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 07:45:29 PM »
Apparently, as I understand it, he couldn't have been born after the death of Herod the Great in 4 BCE, and he couldn't have been born before the census of Quirinius in 6 CE.

So, I conclude that he was never born at all.


Is this a fallacy?

They didn't have a very good dating system back then ... generally we don't know who the governor of a given province was, at any given time, too many provinces, too many gaps.  In Rome time was reckoned by the "consuls" .. two new guys, each year.  That was eventually correlated into the AUC date ... based on a fictitious date for the founding of Rome by Romulus.  From there, you can make an equally fictitious correlation to the Julian date (number of days since 44 BC when Julius Caesar, at the suggestion of Cleopatra, brought the Egyptian solar calendar to Rome.  I am not sure there hasn't been gaps in the Julian date in actual counting, the current Julian date may be based on interpolation.  This was cross checked with other sources of dates of course, which is why even in 730s AD .. when the AD system came into use (thanks to the Venerable Bede up in Northumbria), using calendrical calculations by Dionysius Exiguous ... from around 500 AD ... got it a bit wrong.  There is no exact way to know these dates, they are still plus or minus several years, in absolute years, though in many cases, according to ancient record, we know some relative dates (X happened so many years after Y happened).  But then you are having to trust ancient records for that.  The best modern dating (not 100%) would have King Herod the Great die in 4 BC ... there is no year zero.  Dec 31 1 BC is followed by Jan 1 1 AD.  Similarly Pontius Pilatus was Propaetor (not Procurator) in Judea from 26 to 36 AD.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 07:55:52 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclogue_4 ... just read this in the original a few days ago ...

Often avoided by apologetics ... this is the actual source of the re-used nativity story ... originally it was about the expected first son of Marcus Antonius, to his wife Octavia (sister of Octavian, the Emperor) ... and it turned out to be a first daughter.

People forget that the title of "Savior" is a title of Augustus Caesar, borrowed from the ancestors of Cleopatra.  Augustus was also "son of god" after the pumpkinification of Julius Caesar (from a later satire about Emperor Claudius).

Of course Jewish prophecy and Egyptian paganism figured into this also.  The nativity star would have originally been the comet that appeared at the death of Julius Caesar, which heralded his elevation to godhood.
שלום

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 09:39:10 AM »
BORING!  No radiation.  No nuclear explosion.  No toxic waste.  Not even a dark matter explosion!  You won't be writing for Marvel anytime soon.  I'd try DC.  They like boring super heroes.

Here's a stumper for you.  What exactly did Jesus dying on the cross do for us?  As far as I can tell it didn't do anything at all for us.  Before Jesus we could get to Heaven if we just became Jews.  After Jesus we could get to Heaven if we just became Christians.  Aside from not having to pointlessly slaughter my best goats any more I can't see any way this was anything more than a rebranding.
This sentence is a lie...

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 11:04:50 AM »
BORING!  No radiation.  No nuclear explosion.  No toxic waste.  Not even a dark matter explosion!  You won't be writing for Marvel anytime soon.  I'd try DC.  They like boring super heroes.

Here's a stumper for you.  What exactly did Jesus dying on the cross do for us?  As far as I can tell it didn't do anything at all for us.  Before Jesus we could get to Heaven if we just became Jews.  After Jesus we could get to Heaven if we just became Christians.  Aside from not having to pointlessly slaughter my best goats any more I can't see any way this was anything more than a rebranding.

Well, now we have peace on earth.



Err... Good will toward men?



Umm... Yeah, I got nothing.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline SGOS

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 01:29:38 PM »
During this time of year, one of the most common sights is the Nativity Scene. Whether at the numerous churches (especially in the Bible Belt, where I live), or as Christmas decorations outside and inside of homes. So I started to wonder to myself this year: just how much BS does Jesus' origin story have? I already knew of a few details that were blatantly false, but taking the assumption that Jesus actually existed, how much of his story could have actually been true?

First, when was Jesus born? It is clear that Jesus was not born in the split between BC and AD. Since the Bible claims that King Herod was reigning at the time of Jesus' birth, and King Herod died in 4 BC, Jesus had to have been born before then. As for the star that appeared over Bethlehem, there are too many possible explanations for what could have caused this "new star" to appear in the sky, such as planetary alignments or supernovas, to peg Jesus' birth to specific year. But contrary to what Christians claim, Jesus' birth (if it happened at all) did not likely occur in 1AD.

Also, Jesus was not born in December. Not only would it have been terrible for Herod to force every citizen to travel in the winter (more on that later), details in the Bible point to Jesus' birth occurring during one of the warmer months. No shepherd would have willingly froze his balls off watching his sheep munch on dead grass in the middle of the night. The December date was decided on because of a Jewish tradition, in which righteous men died on the same day of their conception. Jesus died in March, therefore, he was assumed to have been born nine months later in December. Sorry, Christians, but if you're going to say that Jesus is the reason for the season, at least claim the right season. Try Spring or Summer.

Next, who visited Jesus? According to tradition, Jesus was visited by three wise men, or kings, or magi, from the East. The Bible gives no such number, but like many details of Jesus' origin story, it was added later and weakens the credibility of the story. Number of visitors aside, I find it rather suspicious that foreign men of such importance would be familiar enough with Jewish prophecies (even more so than the Jews, apparently) to willingly pack up their things and go to worship the "king of the Jews." Somehow, they supposedly followed an astrological object, not only to a specific town, but to a specific house. Not only that, but these three kings conveniently didn't bother to identify themselves, making it impossible to verify the story by tracking them down. This entire part of the story smells strongly of bovine manure.

Did Jesus' parents really have to travel for a census? Just think about this for a moment. The king of the civilized world decides to count all of the citizens underneath him. And he decides that the best way to do this is to require all of the men to travel to their place of birth? Why not leave them where they are and just ask them where they are from? How is their place of origin even relevant for a census? Requiring so many people to travel all at once would have been a terrible and stupid idea. And of course, there is no evidence that such a thing ever happened. This was clearly a storytelling trick to force Jesus' parents to go to Bethlehem so that Jesus could be born there and fulfill a prophecy.

Did Mary and Joseph really have to escape from Herod? According to the Bible, Jesus' parents were warned by the wise men/magi/kings that Herod considered Jesus a threat, and advised that they flee for their safety. An angel even appeared before Joseph to give him the same message. Then Herod had every boy in Bethlehem under the age of two to be slaughtered. However, despite King Herod being despised by many people, no historians ever recounted him ordering an entire townful of male babies and infants to be killed. And besides, why would an unbeliever like Herod feel threatened by a baby of a carpenter anyway? Unless he believed that the boy was destined to rise up and replace him as ruler, which he had no reason to suspect as someone who was not a Jew and likely saw many false Messiahs rise and fall.

Other details added to the story later, which were likely untrue, include Mary and Joseph being turned away at an inn. Inns only existed on major roads, not inside little insignificant cities like Bethlehem. The Greek word "kataluma," was mistranslated as "inn," when it's usually used to describe a guest room, such as the one where the Last Supper took place in. People also wrongly assume that Jesus was born in a barn. The place was more akin to a kitchen. The lower floor was for the animals, yes, but there was an upper floor for the people.

It can also be implied from details in the Bible that the wise men did not appear until two years after Jesus' birth. The wise men were also not likely to be the respected symbols they're portrayed to be, but were more like traveling salesmen who were typically viewed as shady. The gifts of frankincense and myrrh were even common Aphrodisiacs.

Mary's virgin birth was not declared official Christian dogma until 1854. Before Pope Pius IX made it canon, the idea was first held by a small cult.

Oxes and asses were also never mentioned in the original stories, but were added later to fit Old Testament prophecy. Many other animals were also added over the years just for the sake of it, including a camel, an eagle, a leopard, and more.

So in conclusion, the entire origin story of Jesus is a load of bologna. It started so in its conception (pun intended), and evolved to be more and more unlikely as Christians added and took away details of the story. What do you think? Are there any other BS details of Jesus' backstory that don't hold up under scrutiny that I didn't talk about?

References:

http://www.livescience.com/49228-nativity-story-facts-history.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_21986_6-things-people-get-wrong-about-bibles-christmas-story.html

Meh, nothing there that a  bit of apologetics can't fix.  Where's Randy?

Offline Blackleaf (OP)

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 02:09:02 PM »
Meh, nothing there that a  bit of apologetics can't fix.  Where's Randy?

Oh, all Randy did was avoid answering tough questions and repeat the same shit over and over again. While I think that the Bible and Christianity are both complete garbage, I wouldn't insult apologists by associating them with Randy.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2016, 04:28:18 PM »
Jesus was a high level litch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2016, 05:53:18 PM »
BORING!  No radiation.  No nuclear explosion.  No toxic waste.  Not even a dark matter explosion!  You won't be writing for Marvel anytime soon.  I'd try DC.  They like boring super heroes.

Here's a stumper for you.  What exactly did Jesus dying on the cross do for us?  As far as I can tell it didn't do anything at all for us.  Before Jesus we could get to Heaven if we just became Jews.  After Jesus we could get to Heaven if we just became Christians.  Aside from not having to pointlessly slaughter my best goats any more I can't see any way this was anything more than a rebranding.
Come on, widdershins..............................he is the sacrificial LAMB!  Not a goat!  He died for your sins, my man, so you could get to that place you could already get to anyway.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2016, 06:14:32 PM »
God Not Found
"FRAUD. The life of commerce, the soul of religion, the bait of courtship, and the basis of political power."
Ambrose Bierce

Online Munch

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 07:17:40 PM »
When you think, if I were Jesus I'd be pretty pissed off. So your dad is the creator of the universe, he made everything and everyone you know, so you'd think being the son of the creator of everything, you would have been given at least some level of power he has. I mean Franklyn Richards, son of Reed and Sue, got given the power to alter reality on a cosmic level, leagues above his parents, yet for Jesus, all he gets is a healing power, the power to shaman water walk in wow, and do a self res, like shamans in wow.

I'd expect more from a dad who can do anything, but instead just fucks with people for fun.. actually now I think of it, that makes more sense why jesus didn't get anymore powers given to him.

Re: Jesus' Origin Story
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2016, 10:19:09 AM »
Come on, widdershins..............................he is the sacrificial LAMB!  Not a goat!  He died for your sins, my man, so you could get to that place you could already get to anyway.   
So what you're saying is that the story goes a little like this...

Man, this is going to suck!  It's literally going to kill me to do this, but it is my purpose in life.

"Guys!  There's another door around here...AAAAHHHH!"
This sentence is a lie...