Author Topic: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?  (Read 2796 times)


Offline Atheon

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 03:53:11 AM »
Looks like an "irreducible complexity" argument, which basically goes like this: "I don't know how something this complex could form, therefore goddidit". In other words, an argument from ignorance, which is a fallacy.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Online PickelledEggs

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Offline Murat_Devekusu (OP)

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2016, 04:11:40 AM »
why is that?

Offline aitm

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2016, 08:13:52 AM »
Nothing new here, same old shit. You don't know, I don't know, they don't know, therefore lets just stop looking and say god did it. Thankfully science is not as easily swayed as you are.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline SGOS

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2016, 08:26:47 AM »
If there were an intelligent designer, don't you think he could have designed things a little more intelligently?  For example, a much better eye, one that didn't tend to be nearsighted or farsighted, one that was at least as good as the average hawk.  Sure, science can correct near sightedness with glasses, but why then couldn't the designer get it right?

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2016, 09:16:34 AM »
why is that?

You got 60 years to listen?  I am 60 for a few more weeks, and it has taken me that long to sus out all the wisdom and BS in life.

Sorry how other posters simply blow off science skeptics .. they are skeptical of anything, other than their own beliefs of course ;-))  I like new people, people who aren't know-it-alls etc and am happy to add to their education ;-)

The problem is a mystery, "Life, the Universe, Everything".  Please read ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes

Having read that, you need to come to "your own" understanding as to why "efficient cause" and "final cause" don't work as well in Natural Philosophy than in Anthropology.  Aristotle's analogy, has a human action as its basis, it isn't bias free.  Therefore "intelligent design" arguments, which implicitly involve Aristotle's "four causes" ... have an implicit assumption of human causation.  We will ignore for the moment if other living things also have "actionable intent".  Modern physical science is really just a gloss of Plato, with a little Aristotle added ... that physical reality is the one true reality, a bit like Plato's "world of abstract forms".  There is nothing new under the Sun, everything that has been discussed on this, was already done in Ancient Athens.
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Offline aitm

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2016, 10:25:33 AM »
I don't have a problem with the "intelligent designer"... I have problems with a "god".
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2016, 11:19:33 AM »
Is this 2007?  I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but this Intelligent Design (cdesign proponentsist) stuff died out a looong time ago.

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2016, 11:59:47 AM »
Can someone go find my copypasta argument? I can't do it from my phone. >.>


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2016, 01:03:30 PM »
Can someone go find my copypasta argument? I can't do it from my phone. >.>


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
This one?
Could I? Yes. Am I? Allow me to sing for you the song of my people.

After some analysis comparing the various gods of mythology to omnipotent characters in fiction, you will find there are no differences between the two.

I know that gods don't exist. It's surprisingly simple to sum up: Any being claiming to fit the human concept of a god can offer no proof that cannot equally be offered by this guy:


An advanced alien, like Q here, would be able to claim it is a god,
even your god, and offer any proof you demanded of him.
You would never be able to prove that he is anything other than what he claims.

It sounds like overly simplistic logic, but this is only because the nature of mythological gods itself speaks to how simplistic human imagination tends to be. Even the broadest interpretation of a god separate from the universe, that of deism, only exists to say, "The universe exists, therefore no matter how complex it is God surely must be able to make it," which is really just expanding an already made-up term to encompass new discoveries, rather than just admit that the concept was flawed to begin with.

Then you have the pantheistic and panentheistic definitions, respectively stating that god is the universe and the universe is within god; both of which pretty much mean the same thing after any deep analysis, and both of which beg the question, "If God and the universe are indistinguishable, then why separate the terms at all?" Like deism, the answer is obvious: it's expanding an older term to fit new discoveries, rather than admitting that the concept was flawed from the get-go.

The human concept of a god gets even more ridiculous once you introduce the concept of higher dimensions. Rob Bryanton's Imagining the Tenth Dimension, while by no means describing a currently accepted scientific theory, nevertheless illustrates just how ridiculously huge our universe is should any concept of higher dimensions prove to be accurate (especially given the size of the observable universe we are already well aware of). As the universe gets bigger and bigger, any concept of gods must expand accordingly, to ludicrous levels as this concept should demonstrate.

Even if the observable universe is all there is, if it is really designed then it seems to act like what we would expect of a simulator; and any being capable of designing it should more accurately be referred to as a programmer than a god. "Why can't we just call the programmer God?" you ask. For the same reason we wouldn't call it a leprechaun: fictional though it may be, it already exists as a concept and, for the sake of not invoking confusion and/or emotional validation for irrational beliefs, the term should not be continually expanded to include any and every version of the universe's hypothetical creator. If it is more like a programmer than a god, then that is what we should call it, and how we should regard it. Given all of this, I cannot think of any explanation abiding by Occam's Razor that would lead me to believe that a being conforming to the mythical concept of a god exists.

tl;dr version: There is no way anything we would regard as a god could ever prove that it is what it claims to a skeptical individual. Because the universe less resembles a mythical god's realm than it does a simulator, any designer we did find should be called a programmer, not a god. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that there is no god.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2016, 01:46:37 PM »
This one?
Thanks, mate.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

Online PickelledEggs

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 02:23:30 PM »
why is that?
Because it's strictly fallacious at best.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Atheon

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 10:06:51 PM »
Sorry how other posters simply blow off science skeptics
I say that if you're skeptical of science, you should stop using the fruits of science. Like computers.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheists, what do you think about this argument for intelligent design?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 10:55:19 PM »
I say that if you're skeptical of science, you should stop using the fruits of science. Like computers.

You are the most credulous person here ;-) ... If you were an Eskimo, I could see ice cubes to you ;-))  But that is OK, bee yourself, just don't sting me.
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