Author Topic: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more  (Read 3332 times)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2016, 03:08:06 PM »
yes. There is already neutral words like "they". That is fine. And in all seriousness, if someone wants to use "ze", they have their right to say it.
The issue isn't the words; it's the forcing and legislated fines if you don't.
Ok, I'm confused. So wanting to be called "they" is fine? Receiving a settlement for harassment like smearing Vaseline, yelling insults  and being prevented from using the bathroom is fine? But the two together is the
death of the first amendment
?
While you are clearing things up for me, does Canada's  Bill C-16 actually punish people for refusing
to say "xe" or "xir", some made up pronoun
or not?
Do you actually care about the veracity of these claims or do you just want a cudgel to use against SJWs?
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2016, 03:23:15 PM »
Ok, I'm confused. So wanting to be called "they" is fine? Receiving a settlement for harassment like smearing Vaseline, yelling insults  and being prevented from using the bathroom is fine? But the two together is the ?
While you are clearing things up for me, does Canada's  Bill C-16 actually punish people for refusing  or not?
Do you actually care about the veracity of these claims or do you just want a cudgel to use against SJWs?
I also said they can add it to the dictionary, if they want to make it an official part of our english vocabulary.
SJWs make new words every week. It's impossible for anyone that isn't involved in the extreme left to keep up, and it's ridiculous to enforce a law that punishes people that use a different set of wording.

It's very similar to the hijab. I personally think the hijab is a shitty piece of headwear that is oppressive to the people that wear it... BUT I am passionately against the idea of a ban against hijabs and similar islamic headwear.
Muslims have the right to express themselves religiously whether anyone or even a vast majority agrees with their beliefs or not. That is what first amendment is.

Similarly, if some extreme left sjw wants to use some new word from tumblr to describe themself, they have the right to do so. Fining people for not using that word is facism. It is an assault on on the first amendment in the disguise of protection from harassment. Letting these laws happen, as little as they may seem, it slowly creeps up in to a full fascist state where no one can say anything. It leaks and opens the field for more groups to play the professional victim card, which is already happening. This isn't just about xe or xir. It's actually not about the words they want to use at all. It's about punishment for using/not using words, which is an assault on freedom of speech.

Wanting to be called "they" is fine. Wanting to be called "xe" is fine. Demanding to be called anything and having the other person punished and fined if they don't comply is not. It's fascism.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2016, 08:18:18 PM »
We could declare that all English words are equally offensive to the N word ... and so everyone can be made to STFU.  Snowflakes ;-(
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Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2016, 08:19:02 PM »
We could declare that all English words are equally offensive to the N word ... and so everyone can be made to STFU.  Snowflakes ;-(
Lol

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2016, 04:38:19 AM »
Off topic, but important in the larger picture ...

"The world will be changed and overhauled many many times over and over again." ... of course, it matters who's baklava is being stomped on ;-)

There is a wide spread theory that one of the reason why the Roman Empire failed in the West, was thru corruption and mismanagement.  The East was much better managed, less corrupt and had the advantage of the Egyptian grain supply (which ended with Islam, and pretty much doomed the Byzantines, though they could partly compensate by ramping up grain imports from the Ukraine, though that was eventually disrupted too).  It took awhile for W Roman Empire to fail, about 250 years .. things changed more slowly back then).  The barbarians were merely taking advantage of a regional systemic collapse, something they couldn't do until after 391 CE.

So the West must fail, because reality will spank people who are delusional, who are not fact based, not reality based.  This can be kept at bay, for awhile, thanks to injections of fake liquidity (as happened in Rome from 200 CE onward).  Eventually people are forced back to barter, like what is happening in Greece and India right now.  But that liquidity is necessary for civilization higher than agricultural subsistence.  Thus the Roman cities of the West were gradually abandoned, even Rome itself.  Right now in the US, about 90% of us are urban ... when we have to cycle back to Dark Ages subsistence, we will have to lose about 90% of our population, since they will be useless mouths to feed.  This of course works in Turkey too, and has happened many times before (Ephesus, Smyrna etc).  Are you "close" to subsistence fishing or farming?  If not, your future is bleak, as the inevitable cycle of history repeats.

It wasn't until 19th century London, that any city in the West became what Rome was at its peak in the 2nd century CE. ... that is how long the "depression" lasted ... 1700 years.

Yes, this is true. (By the way, I live in Smyrna. Literally, in the ancient city called Smyrna,lol ) I am somewhat close to subsistance fishing and farming. 

However, the change you are describing is already happenening right now. And while it is happening, it is forcing a change and that change is painted as 'war of religions' or 'war of cultures'. The so called Syria conflict is on based on water crisis, Baruch. But it is as served the bullshit of 'Islamic war on the West.'

What you are wrong about in my opinion is defining that change which has been constant the entire time as something determinate with certain conclusions; you are comparing -again- ancient civilisations and their relationships to present day ones and expressing that change today as 'failure or collapse' as opposed to 'rise'. Roman Empire -as you know perfectly- was just a central power zone. It's just an Empire. Like many others. Aztec, Chinese, Egyptian, Ottoman, British, European, American, ...etc. And in that period the entire 'global economy' was limited to an Empire's power of conquering one place and using it as resource deposit, today while this goes on exactly the same, it is only limited to certain resources, and the rest is on trade - int. politics, because our power and variety of production have changed dramatically since then. If American economy fails so does ours. (I understand why you often compare these two worlds -ancient and modern- but I think besides the certain basics, it is incorrect and I never put modern world in a special place saying that.) Now when the latter; modern global economy is in danger other factors comes into play. Agreements, politics, new alliances and blocs. We depend on each other today in an incomparable way.

So what you express as 'failure' of one civilisations it is just redefining the same civilisation with different traits. When Church lost power, the Age of Empires started. When they lost power, the modern state and new central power zones and blocs occured. During this process the West, East, South and North have constantly been redefined. And after that many times over. New generations get born into new versions of these power zones and it will be the Western culture then. Same goes with others. And they will all complain about the 'failure' of their civilisation and how 'the end is nigh' in their own time. Humans are doing this since they invented the concept of 'the end is nigh' themselves in every period of history. 

To see all this process; development of humanity as 'collapse' of a certain culture actually tells what was wrong to begin with and it is a form of 'religious' thinking. When I say the world is going to get hauled over, I mean it literally. The demography, migration, lack of basic resources will haul the world over. Just 200 years ago world population was less than 1 billion. Less than 1 billion. For thousands of years population grew slowly and then it dramatically jumped for many reasons we all know. 200 years is a very miniscule, tiny fraction of 'time', hell 10 000 years is a tiny fraction of time and sometimes I think people forget that even if they are aware of the historical concept of time in earth scale. (I am not saying universe, I am saying earth.)

In short, the idea that a certain civilisation or culture will collapse and stop being what it is supposed to be in course of humanity resulting an active role to change it fundamentally is a perception of one individual's idea of civilisation as he knows-see of his own. A perception that can very easily shaped and manipulated completely outside of reality for every mass of people in every culture. Besides being the greatest bullshit, it's very arrogant, Baruch. Not to mention ignorant. Western civilisation, Mestern civilisation. What do you really think is going to happen to the world when Western civilisation changes or in your words 'collapses'?



On 17 of August 1999 at 03:02 am, I was awake and roughly 100km away from the center when the Northern Anatolian Fault Zone produced an earthquake at the magnitude of 7.6. Nothing happened to me or to my family. I was just scared as hell. I will never ever forget that. Not because of the loss of life, because that 45 seconds is a very tiny scale reminder of how small we really are, how fragile, how NEW and clueless. How incredibly insignificant in nature, just in this tiny planet's scale. The ultimate truth. There is nothing to beat that. Nothing.

Please take a step back and appreciate the ridiculousness of evaluating one civilisation's 'rise' or 'collapse' on earth as the key influence on humanity's 'fate' and also then compare that with people who are preaching that SJW movement is result of Cultural Marxism and the slow 'end' of their civilisation. (Is there a word in English that combines severe stupidity, narcissism and arrogance at the same time?) I am putting the Earth Clock here for inspiration.















« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 04:49:57 AM by drunkenshoe »

Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2016, 06:41:20 AM »
If I don't believe in teleology, Manifest Destiny nor progress ... in what way am I positing anything other than random change?  It isn't two steps forward and one step back even ... but one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back ... basically fatalism denies human agency, and I can never accept that.  So that is one good reason why I can't accept Marx (not that means of production isn't important).  However there are phase transitions ... the Roman Empire arising and falling wasn't, in the long term, just one more day pretty much like the last otherwise Smyrna 1920 wouldn't have happened, and you would be more likely speaking Greek or Armenian.  Heraclitus, from nearly Ephesus, would deny the existence of continuity too.  Would you be less secure if this were 1920, and the Greeks pushed the Turks out of W Anatolia and into E Anatolia?  It is easy to speak, if history happened to run your way..

I knew you vacationed opposite Chios, but didn't know that was your home area.

We have only had regional collapse in history before, not worldwide ... except for Mt Tambora.  The various megadroughts since then have nearly killed off humanity too.  I have been thru many earthquakes of smaller size (thanks to fracking) ... most recently 5.0 scale.  Made you realize people are just nits?  That may comfort you.

Today ... given the importance of the West as consumers ... Chinese and Indian laborers will be severely impacted, because their states can't survive on domestic consumption alone.  This is aside from the cultural loss (and yes, I don't consider Indian or Chinese culture, both socialist today, as at all equivalent.  I am much less chauvinist than others here, because I am an "outsider" on the inside.
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Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2016, 08:09:52 AM »
If I don't believe in teleology, Manifest Destiny nor progress ... in what way am I positing anything other than random change?  It isn't two steps forward and one step back even ... but one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back ... basically fatalism denies human agency, and I can never accept that.  So that is one good reason why I can't accept Marx (not that means of production isn't important).

You realise that the planet is a limited places with limited resources, right? There is no need of any ideology -which by the way you are treating as some artificial factors themselves. If you are positing random change why you sound as if they are conscious turning points determined by 'cultures' in a linear development?

No forwards or backwards. Best it cuold be defined as 'irregular' circles...but on and on it is just shapes that never fit in human geometric definitions. It's not a matter of accepting or not accepting. Nobody is at the wheel. There is no wheel. It's a delusion porvided by the very short existence of our species.


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However there are phase transitions ... the Roman Empire arising and falling wasn't, in the long term, just one more day pretty much like the last otherwise Smyrna 1920 wouldn't have happened, and you would be more likely speaking Greek or Armenian.

No. Smyrna 1920 is a typical event in every Empire's collapse. The Ottoman Empire along with European force and US assistance was defeated by Turks. Even if it was unsuccessful, I wouldn't be speaking Greek or Armenian, I would BE SPEAKING ENGLISH. The region would be a British colony. while they influenced it a lot racing against the French AND the German, they both lost Turkey to America.

Now let's check your historical perspective. You keep saying Greece. What Greece? Ottomans conquered Eastern Roman Empire, the Empire that has ruled over people who spoke some sort of a Greek dialect, for 1100 years. And they have lived under Ottoman rule for more than 350 years, that's roughly 150 years more than the entire existence of the United States. Symrna has ceased to exist centuries ago, but you are talking about it as if it fell yesterday.

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Heraclitus, from nearly Ephesus, would deny the existence of continuity too.  Would you be less secure if this were 1920, and the Greeks pushed the Turks out of W Anatolia and into E Anatolia?  It is easy to speak, if history happened to run your way..

Again who are these Greeks pushing Turks of Anatolia? Who are these Turks? Turks' consciousness of nationality, exported from Europe and applied after the Independence War when the Republic of Turkey was founded in 1923. They started as a rebel army fighting to collapse their monarch. Basically soldier comes and unites the 'local people' and tell them, they are Turks and they need to fight for their independence. They follow him. The thing you all Westerners miss that OTTOMANS DO NOT ACCEPT THEMSELVES AS TURKS. Turks are the lowest class of workers, the word Turk is synonym for 'hired hand' in Ottoman Culture. And the Ottoman Empire is just a cake to divide and share for Europeans, to colonise.

You are speaking with a tone that equates the cultural inheritence defined as Western roots; something literally invented and written down in 19th century, what we name as Ancient Greece as if they have had any organic connection with the Greeks or the Greek culture for roughly the last 1500 years as opposed to some other culture's camp. Do you think Greeks and Armenians and Turks have different cultures? LOL

Do you understand the difference between the history 'made' and taught to Western children for over a 100 years now in terms of 'discovering America' versus 'invading America' -as an anlogy- and its consequences? This is the course of your thought in defining civilisations in different camps and see the path of humanity as a linear development with turning points based on the collapse of one camp, in this case the Western civilisation.

It is far away from reality as possible. It's centripetal and centrifugal forces constantly moving altogether like a huge irregular kaleidoscope of shades of grey.

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I knew you vacationed opposite Chios, but didn't know that was your home area.


I live in the Aeagean Site. It's beautiful and still is not touched by the religious gov. Yet.

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We have only had regional collapse in history before, not worldwide ... except for Mt Tambora.  The various megadroughts since then have nearly killed off humanity too.  I have been thru many earthquakes of smaller size (thanks to fracking) ... most recently 5.0 scale.  Made you realize people are just nits?  That may comfort you.

It's an unbelievably scary and humbling experience without getting any harm. Cannot even imagine to really live it through. I don't think people are just nits, before 7.6, I enjoyed earthquakes, I had had many around 5.0. Don't mock nature. There is no winning.

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Today ... given the importance of the West as consumers ... Chinese and Indian laborers will be severely impacted, because their states can't survive on domestic consumption alone.  This is aside from the cultural loss (and yes, I don't consider Indian or Chinese culture, both socialist today, as at all equivalent.  I am much less chauvinist than others here, because I am an "outsider" on the inside.

Well you are in for a surprise. As I said we are much tightly tied togther in every sense than we were ever in history before.


Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2016, 12:56:32 PM »
Love your anthropology.  So Turks were still purely tribal all the way into the 20th century?  I didn't realize that the Sublime Porte was so ... fragmented.

Yes, the idea of civilization is ideological.  You have to have ideology to unify people enough to create a civilization, or to control the narrative to keep it going.  And all ideology is bullshit.  So yes, no such thing as Western, Eastern or Civilization.  But you are too meta still, you pretend that ideology isn't real, when it is very real to the extent that people believe it.

I am not saying that a collapse of industry in E and S Asia would leave the US unaffected ... the opposite .. that a collapse of Europe and the US and Japan ... would have a negative impact on E and S Asia.  The very connectedness of economies is what brings them down.  If they stay at subsistence level, without cities, they are very stable (see ancient Egypt).  The Egyptians had palace/temple economies, but no cities.  The palace and the temple acted as the oligopoly corporations (same as in Babylonia).  But cities were unnecessary, to provide luxury goods ... only for the palace and temple.  Also technology was simple enough, the agriculture didn't depend on city technology (as it does today).
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Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2016, 03:36:16 PM »
Love your anthropology. So Turks were still purely tribal all the way into the 20th century?  I didn't realize that the Sublime Porte was so ... fragmented.

What do you mean by 'purely tribal'? Turks are moving momads without any written and settled down civilisation back ground. It basically took centuries for them to get into a settled down life. And another reason why they left every 'state' to their own development in this sense. (Example: If you go around in old Ottoman land -which is huge- you wouldn't be able to draw a common characteristic of Ottoman Architecture. Ottoman language; is old turkish mixed with farsi and arabic written in arabic alphabet but completely different language. Very few people understand it) There are still moving clans of tens of thousands in Anatolia today. British likes to make politics with them. Now imagine 21st century and there is a 90 K clan that moves around in summer and winter directed by one man. )

Ottoman is the only one dynasty of an Empire; one family in a system without any aristocratic class whatsoever. Sultan do not get married, do not take Turkish women as wives so there wouldn't be right to throne or inheritence. It's legal for a Sultan to kill his male siblings doesn't matter how many after crowned so the Empire wouldn't get divided. It's the fucking law.

Sublime Porte is an architectural symbol of it. Porte. You are talking about the Emperial Gate of the palace.

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Yes, the idea of civilization is ideological.  You have to have ideology to unify people enough to create a civilization, or to control the narrative to keep it going.  And all ideology is bullshit.  So yes, no such thing as Western, Eastern or Civilization.  But you are too meta still, you pretend that ideology isn't real, when it is very real to the extent that people believe it.

How is it that I pretend that ideology doesn't exist. Will you ever stop thinking in theistic terms?

Ideology is neither a supernatural virus nor a ghost infecting people by physical contact or air and water, Baruch. There is nothing, literally NOTHING in this world that doesn't have a rational explanation or nothing that is not connected to reality through basic human condition and survival.

Ideology, like religion only works if it spreads on the fertile ground. In an educated, healthy, highly prospered society you'll find it very hard to manipulate people with religious or political ideologies. Here is a suitable anology for American culture. Think about it like a movie scenario, if you can't make it 'real' in the movie, it doesn2t work. It's just floating around. There has to be a constructed reality for it to work.

A state's power over its people in his ability to wage wars and gain victory against the enemies it creates. This doesn't require some special ideology. It only requires isolated, national-religiious societies which is what the human culture is made of. Since the central militarisation took off which is far before than the Roman Empire or Western civlisation even existed.

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I am not saying that a collapse of industry in E and S Asia would leave the US unaffected ... the opposite .. that a collapse of Europe and the US and Japan ... would have a negative impact on E and S Asia.  The very connectedness of economies is what brings them down.  If they stay at subsistence level, without cities, they are very stable (see ancient Egypt). The Egyptians had palace/temple economies, but no cities.  The palace and the temple acted as the oligopoly corporations (same as in Babylonia).  But cities were unnecessary, to provide luxury goods ... only for the palace and temple.  Also technology was simple enough, the agriculture didn't depend on city technology (as it does today).

OK. I get it better now. But outcome is the same.

Over all, tribal kind of life -it is very important in this sense- doesn't just work subsistence farming level, it also works with sharing of the resources and those immediate products. This is how the most of the Eastern and Middle Eastern societies work. Life is far less individual, far less professional and far less corporate. Every system has its cons and pros; because they are all honed to provide the survival of the majority. There are also positive 'side effects' of underdevelop systems. People are forced to survive with different set of rules. Being tribal is the very definition this base actually. 

If the world is reduced to a ground of that balance being broken the way you describe, East won't have the same scale of trouble with the West. But West has other things to trade for besides the military superiority. Technology, medicine.

So in the end, nothing is collapsing, but changing in an organic process.


Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2016, 07:13:23 PM »
Ah yes, the organic process where the king of the Huns drinks the blood of the Gothic king, out of a cup made from the skull of the Gothic king?  Sorry, I can't romanticize organic processes.  Too much compost.
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