Author Topic: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more  (Read 3779 times)

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 08:43:40 PM »
So I guess that is a somewhat non-direct answer to the punishment for the law question you had. I care less about Canada, now that this extra step towards grammatical tyranny is already here in the U.S. In my own home area, nonetheless.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2016, 09:41:12 PM »
I hereby declare my pronouns to be bomp bah bomp bah bomp/rama lama ding dong/bomp bah bomp bah bomp-self. If you wish to use normal pronouns instead, you may Paypal me $100 rather than pay $1,000s in fines.
To be is to do - Socrates
To do is to be - Sartre
Do Be Do Be Do - Sinatra

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2016, 11:50:53 PM »
I hereby declare my pronouns to be bomp bah bomp bah bomp/rama lama ding dong/bomp bah bomp bah bomp-self. If you wish to use normal pronouns instead, you may Paypal me $100 rather than pay $1,000s in fines.
now I know what to do when I'm short on cash. I'll just take a quick 20 min train in to NYC and tumblr it up. I'll be rich in no time at all.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Cavebear

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2016, 04:52:13 AM »
Pronouns get really awkward these days.  You don't see the person you are replying to.  You don't know about transgender possibilities.  I try to stick to the gender neutral  Latin "you. us. them. it".  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2016, 06:46:03 AM »
There is nothing wrong with a transgender person claiming to be called by the pronoun of his/her 'preferred' gender. Treating this position as the same thing with someone who think they are 'pixicans' or with other extreme examples only means that your idea of LGBTQ people is as fucked up as religious groups. It seems you simply do not recognise them and also see their reaction to how society treats them AND see them as responsible from the downfall of your society. One step further down from that road is blaming them people for hurricanes and earthquakes.

People are so susceptible to bullshit, so weak minded and far gone in their learned bitterness and misplaced anger, they are not even aware which one is a real problem, which one is a fantasy.

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2016, 01:33:13 PM »
There is nothing wrong with a transgender person claiming to be called by the pronoun of his/her 'preferred' gender.

I know. I agree. People can want to be called whatever they want. They aren't entitled to demand that others refer to them the way they want, with the consequence of a fine if they don't. The issue is that there is now laws that will result in a fine if you do not say the words they demand you to say. It's a direct assault on the first amendment and freedom of speech.
People come up with new pronouns every fucking day of the week.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 01:35:13 PM by PickelledEggs »
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Shiranu

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2016, 11:19:52 PM »
>That face when you close the wrong tab after writing a good 10 minute response...



I'll try this again...

Quote
Praise be the death of the first amendment.

This is, at it's core, painfully hyperbolic and is one of the fundamental flaws within the "anti-SJW" camp; their arguments come from a place of knee-jerk, reactionary and (yes, I dare say it) emotional responses without fully, or perhaps even partially, understanding what they are actually talking about. Using just the article you posted, but left out most of, it's honestly a very different picture then you want to paint. Likewise delving deeper into the second one (which should be noted is an opinion piece and not a journalist article) this knee-jerk reaction becomes. I will go into the history of CNS news afterwards, because it is relevant to understand their background and their Republican party backings.

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The New York City Human Rights Commission has issued guidance saying that businesses may be fined for “harassment” if they do not use customers’ desired pronouns in relation to questions of gender, including preferred usages such as “ze” and “hir.”

This sounds "bad" at first, but that is because it leaves out key details.

The word "harassment" is used in quotes to express some sort of emotional triggering by the word, but it should be unparenthesized harassment. This is a situation where the reactionary aspect really shows it's face; when you start to think about the situations that would lead to a harassment charge you realise that it makes perfect sense and is something that is actually perfectly common within our existing law system. And it's not like you just call someone "sir" and they automatically sue you; it is a matter of you saying "sir", them correcting you, and then you intentionally and maliciously continuing to use the word because what YOU believe they are is what's important, and if they don't fit your expectations of what sex or gender they are then they are wrong. That is harassment, not "harassment". If you continued to call a black man, "my homie" when he asked to be call sir, a gay guy "princess" when he asked to be called "sir" or a tomboy "sir" when she tells you she is a she, then you are harassing them.

When digging deeper into this law you will read that (from your second link), "Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. " is what constitutes harassment. I fail to see what is so offensive about this, since we have laws regarding language protecting people from harassment of biological and personal states as it is. Protecting people's biological and sexuality identity should be a corner stone of a civilized society, not something we balk at.

And I honestly don't think you realize this, nor agree with it, but what you are saying when you make these knee-jerk reactions without thinking them through is that harassing people for their sexuality is acceptable, that shaming people for being different is right and that businesses should be allowed to harass people because "you" think they are stupid. You cant lecture people about the dangers of emotions when your own arguments are not only based on emotions (which I don't believe to be an inherently bad thing) but instead come from a malicious, fearful and hateful place. It is cliché, but it's a great example of how even mindless and unintentional "bad" emotions so often put out more "negativity" without it being intended; you don't mean to hurt these people, but the things you say while being hateful or afraid, before you think, have tangible consequences.

Quote
In Oregon, a school district has settled a transgender bias claim, paying $60,000 to a transgender employee who demanded to be called “they” rather than “he” or “she.” The district has agreed to “develop official guidance documents” for “pronoun usage,” and “[V]iolations of the guidance will be grounds for discipline.”

Again, I don't see how you view this as some type of break down of Western civilization and the death of the first amendment other than you have not actually thought your position through but just believe it "feels" good. I don't believe you actually believe harassment is okay, but you have been tricked by this idea that the "SJW" is out to get you that you are saying that we need to throw the laws that protect people from harassment out. It's just silly, and unfortunate, that this view point is ironically enough the mainstream narrative... and yet within the camp they view themselves as the oppressed ones. It's like Christians crying that atheists are destroying their country, when in truth it is run by a Christian government and society (even the atheists are heavily influenced by Christian doctrine due to our heritage) and they are heavily in the majority... but we have to pass extreme, hateful measures because the atheists dare to question our authority. That is exactly what the "anti-SJW" is doing, and is a large part of why Trump was elected ("He isn't politically correct").

Quote
...And they should be free not to use words that ‘set off grammar alarms’” that signal such an ideological message.....

Quote
Similarly, Professor Volokh notes, it is improper for the government to force people or businesses to use “ze,” a made-up word that carries an obvious political connotation (endorsement of the “non-binary” view of gender).

This is progressively getting worse and worse. That is not a political statement, that is a scientific "fact" (insofar as anthropology, sociology and psychology can be "fact"). The entire concept of gender (not sex, gender) is a social concept and for all intents and purposes any Western professor or scientist who studies the fields will tell you this. This isn't even a new concept, this has been around for decades. I really want to say something, but the next quote from your second link just hammers it home...

Quote
We have to call people “him” and “her” even if we believe that people’s genders are determined by their biological sex and not by their self-perceptions...

I'm sorry, but this article is what the first one linked to and agreed to... and this single quote should send red flags to anyone who has the slightest grasp of history. This is the EXACT same thing people said when the "Social Darwinist" & Morgan's "Savage, Barbarian, Civilization" view points began to die out; "Wow, these elitists say we have to say all humans are equal! How dare they!", "Wow, the law is saying we cant imply that it's our moral obligation to enslave Africans and Indians because they are civilizations themselves!". It is the exact same argument that is made when, "How dare the law say we cant call them black folk niggers" or "It's illegal to call gays fucking homos? THIS IS OPPRESSION!".

I don't think you should be afraid of anyone, but if you insist on fearing something then fear people who spread this ideology. Actually read your sources, and not just the headlines, the full articles, and take a minute or two to think about the ramifications of what is being said. This is the shit you need to be afraid of, not the boogiemen in the headline.

Edit: I really hope I get this in on time, it just slipped my mind...


Quote
Non-transgender employees have no right to force people to call them by an imaginary or ungrammatical pronoun, so as a matter of simple equity, transgender people should not be able to make such demands, either (and the vast majority of transgender people do not even want to be called “they” or “ze”).

The logical flaws of the first line are hopefully pretty obvious ("Men have no right to complain about 'imaginary' problems they don't have, so women have no right to complain about 'imaginary' problems they actually do have. Equality!"), but the second line... this entire argument boils down to, "How DARE I be forced to be a decent human being and not an asshole!".

If you have to be forced not to be an asshole, then yes... I think businesses and the state have a right to tell you not to be an asshole or face punishment. What is so damn inconvenient about saying, "Oh, I'm sorry x. How may I help you?". Why is the "inconvenience" there more important than the actual inconvenience when someone intentionally starts harassing you because you don't fit their ideal off what they should be? I hear it argued from time to time that we live in a generation of "cry-baby pussies"... is this not the very definition of a cry-baby, someone who whines about how unfair it is that he cant be a jackass?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 11:45:43 PM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Shiranu

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2016, 11:27:14 PM »
I'm too tired to write another essay, but I will leave the links to the history of CNS news here if you are interested in seeing what bias they come from...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNSNews.com

Quote
CNSNews.com was founded by L. Brent Bozell III on June 16, 1998, under the name Conservative News Service and the domain name www.conservativenews.org.

CNSNews.com's editor from 1998-2005 was Scott Hogenson, who took a leave of absence in November, 2003 to serve as the director of radio and online operations for the Republican National Committee in the 2004 election cycle.

Terence P. Jeffrey became editor-in-chief in September 2007. Jeffrey was and remains an editor-at-large for the conservative weekly newspaper Human Events. He wrote editorials for The Washington Times from 1987–1991 and was research director for the presidential campaign of Pat Buchanan in 1992. Jeffrey was Buchanan's national campaign manager in his 1996 campaign.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Research_Center

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Its stated mission is to "prove—through sound scientific research—that liberal bias in the media does exist and undermines traditional American values."

he MRC has received financial support from several foundations, including the Bradley, Scaife, Olin, Castle Rock, Carthage and JM foundations.[4] Bob Ward has said that it also receives funding from ExxonMobil.

...In its mission to show that there is a "strident liberal bias" [35] in the national news media...

that the media is sympathetic to Communism or "dictators",[37][38] that media coverage of global warming is biased in favor of environmentalism,[39] and that the media focuses on covering the negative side of the Iraq war.

On December 22, 2011, Media Research Center president Bozell appeared on Fox News and suggested U.S. President Barack Obama looks like a "skinny ghetto crackhead."[48][49][50] reacting to MSNBC's Chris Matthews' assertions that Newt Gingrich "looks like a car bomber" with "no media backlash."

The Media Research Center has also faced scrutiny over the group's $350,000 purchase in 2012 of a Pennsylvania house that a top executive had been trying to sell for several years. [51]

On June 31, 2013, Media Research Center president Bozell appeared on Fox News to defend a Fox interview in which Fox journalists conducted almost no research into the interviewee, Reza Aslan's, background and its hypothetical biases.[52]

Again, the "anti-SJW" movement is just politically correct "alt-right" bullshit, and this fear that anything and anyone different is out to destroy our way of life. I really think you need to reevaluate your position because I don't think you are as hateful and terrible of person as this, I think you just have bought into bullshit without realising it.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2016, 02:12:37 AM »
First of all, I'd like to thank you, Shir. Even though as of now, and possibly for the rest of this thread, we are in disagreement, I'd like to thank you for at least disagreeing about the topic and not talking about a completely different tangent that no one is even talking about.

but anyway...
You can disregard the CNS article, if it makes you feel better. The wallstreet journal had an article of it's own on the same subject, citing an instance where someone was fined for this same bullshit. I don't know if you missed that article that I posted, but it's there.

Anything at this point even slightly in the center of the spectrum, but still on the left will seem extremely conservative to an extreme left worldview. It's to that point now. Just because it isn't extreme leftism, it doesn't mean it's alt-right (or what alt right actually is, Nazi-ism)

Yes. I know and am aware it's about a repeated refusal to call someone by their preferred pronoun, but if you have someone repeatedly insisting to not say a tumblr word of the day, like ze or whatever, it also means that there is someone insisting and persisting repeatedly that they call them that. That persistent demanding of a use of a word is not only harassment in it's self, it's also narcissistic.
We're not talking about using words that are offensive, were talking about not using a word and people being offended by it. It's not like we have people calling people "fags" here. It's an absence of words. People are offended by this? And it's turned in to people getting fined? That is a direct assault of freedom of speech.

It's a funny thing that you bring up alt-right though. Because this is a very totalitarian way of governing. Strict control of words... manipulating people based on their vocabulary... a nazi dream.


In regards to trans, don't most trans people want to be referred by the gender they're transitioning to/transitioned to? like if they were a woman and went to male, they want to be reffered to as "he"/ "him" male to women trans people like to be referred to as "she"/"her". No trans person I've ever came across wants to be referred to as a gender neutral tumblr word. Everything is a micro-aggression. Everything is a hate crime. Everything is harassment.
You know what? it really dilutes when something is ACTUALLY an instance of harassment or hate-crime. Like when someone is spitting racist or homophobic slurs at someone. Real hate. Real violence. Real aggression.

It's about the control of speech. You want to use a word to describe you? That's fine. Use whatever word you want. Add it to the dictionary and make them official parts of our language. That's fine too. There should not be a legislated rule that punishes people for use, or even lack of use of a word. Not once. Not ever. Period. Full stop.  It's is absurd and it's reminiscent of fascism.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2016, 03:26:48 AM »
I know. I agree. People can want to be called whatever they want. They aren't entitled to demand that others refer to them the way they want, with the consequence of a fine if they don't. The issue is that there is now laws that will result in a fine if you do not say the words they demand you to say. It's a direct assault on the first amendment and freedom of speech.
People come up with new pronouns every fucking day of the week.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

No, my point is that in transgenders' situation it is not just a random demand to be called what they are.

On social media their situation is included in ridiculous fantasy identity like pixicans. That is wrong.

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2016, 03:30:22 AM »
No, my point is that in transgenders' situation it is not just a random demand to be called what they are.


Which is a different subject entirely and one I agree with. If you want to make a thread about that, a completely different subject, go ahead. This is about a law that was passed that results in a fine if you do not wish to participate with their childish demand to force other people use their words.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 03:42:02 AM by PickelledEggs »
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2016, 04:24:27 AM »
Which is a different subject entirely and one I agree with. If you want to make a thread about that, a completely different subject, go ahead. This is about a law that was passed that results in a fine if you do not wish to participate with their childish demand to force other people use their words.

If I want to talk about it, I can talk about it in this thread. It's an important part of the subject, also mentioned in the video.

But I have already said what I think, so it is not necessary.   

Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2016, 04:44:58 AM »
If I want to talk about it, I can talk about it in this thread. It's an important part of the subject, also mentioned in the video.

But I have already said what I think, so it is not necessary.   
You positioned it like we were in disagreement with each other about it. I'm confused at why you constantly do this sort of thing; taking a subject that someone hasn't even commented on, stated their opinion on, etc, and go full force in to an argument. It baffles me. It makes it near impossible to have a constructive conversation with you, when you do that.... which is frequently.

Yes, Trangender people face an issue greater than pronouns.  I would say that almost no transgender people want to use "ze" or "hir" or whatever and would rather just be referred to as the gender they transitioned to/are currently transitioning to. The pronouns are the least of their worries though. They recieve hate from the conservative groups, religious groups, and even some secular people.

"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2016, 05:17:39 AM »
I didn't position anything against you. I didn't even write it to you. I wrote that first post about it after reading Cavebear's post generally to the thread and you answered to it and tried to make my point clear. We are not having a discussion.

You are looking for excuses to throw some bullshit at me. Enough already. What the fuck is wrong with you?


Offline PickelledEggs (OP)

Re: Jordan Peterson talks SJWs, ideologies, free speech, religion, and more
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2016, 05:28:03 AM »
Cavebear didn't post in this thread until later on, so no, you first few posts in this thread were not in reply to him. You didn't quote anyone, either. You didn't even address anyone with your first, long, seemingly argumentative, drawn out post. I guess it only seemed argumentative because of how you write things, shoe.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE