Author Topic: Just So This Extraordinary Claim Has A Non-Admin Topic...  (Read 7109 times)

Offline Sleeper (OP)

Just So This Extraordinary Claim Has A Non-Admin Topic...
« on: February 17, 2013, 06:07:41 PM »
Umm... Let's see, Judaism... umm... Oh:

What's to make of this claim that the ancient Jews were actually polytheists?

[youtube:rmnxc39f][/youtube:rmnxc39f]
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

Offline Sleeper (OP)

(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 07:12:49 PM »
"Well, that's the story the Bible tells us, but I disagree. When subjected to rigorous analysis...."

I'm in love with her.
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

Offline aitm

Re: Just So This Extraordinary Claim Has A Non-Admin Topic..
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 07:18:54 PM »
I am not a historian but the babble mentions other gods many times. The whole of the hatred twixt god and hebrews were their worshipping other gods. And there has been much about the whole Elohim being part of a polythiestic god set. I am not surprised
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

(No subject)
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 07:20:07 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

Quote
The ancient roots of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age polytheistic Ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. During the Babylonian captivity of the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, certain circles within the exiled Judahites in Babylon redefined pre-existing ideas about monotheism, election, divine law and Covenant into a theology which came to dominate the former Judah in the following centuries.
From the 5th century BCE until 70 CE, Israelite religion developed into the various theological schools of Second Temple Judaism, besides Hellenistic Judaism in the diaspora. The text of the Hebrew Bible was redacted into its extant form in this period and possibly also canonized as well. The Rabbinic form of Judaism developed during Late Antiquity, during the 3rd to 6th centuries CE; the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible (the addition of vowels to the consonant text) and the Talmud were compiled in this period. The oldest manuscripts of the Masoretic Biblical tradition however come from the 10th and 11th centuries CE; in the form of the Aleppo Codex of the later portions of the 10th century CE and the Leningrad Codex dated to either 1008 CE or 1009 CE. Regarding Rabbinical works, due largely to censoring and burning of manuscripts in medieval Europe, the oldest manuscripts in existence of various Rabbinical works are quite late. For example the oldest complete manuscript copy of the Babylonian Talmud to survive is dated to 1342 CE.[1]

This is known. Also it is known that there is no historical record of the Exodus, and all the archaeological evidence indicates the religion grew and evolved in what was ancient Canaan.

Re: Just So This Extraordinary Claim Has A Non-Admin Topic..
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 07:21:11 PM »
Quote from: "Sleeper"
Umm... Let's see, Judaism... umm... Oh:

What's to make of this claim that the ancient Jews were actually polytheists?


It be true...there is so much evidence for it. The Hebrews mostly henotheist, it wasn't until after they were influenced by Cyrus (of 300 fame) and the Persians did they become strict dualists and monotheists. In fact Jehovah was not only the sky god imposing order he also functions as the ocean god who created chaos and his wife Asherah was a forest deity and they had a pet demi-god creature name Lothan or Leviathan.

(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 07:28:12 PM »
Quote
the oldest manuscripts in existence of various Rabbinical works are quite late. For example the oldest complete manuscript copy of the Babylonian Talmud to survive is dated to 1342 CE.[1]

All of the claims based on legitimacy of scripture and ancient records are highly problematic for this reason. Just as with New Testament sources, the time gap involved between actual events and the so-called written account throws some serious cold water on the authenticity of the records. In addition, there is no way to know how much change has been made over time; records are copies of copies of copies.

The archaeological record does not tell the same story as scripture.

Offline Sleeper (OP)

Re:
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 07:43:12 PM »
Quote from: "stromboli"
This is known. Also it is known that there is no historical record of the Exodus, and all the archaeological evidence indicates the religion grew and evolved in what was ancient Canaan.
I also found the history of David quite interesting - that his historicity is quite scant, he had no empire whatsoever, they occupied NONE of the lands they claimed to, and that the Philistines were peaceful, progressive people. The question is, how do we square this with the fact that the Bible is the infallible word of God?
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

Re:
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 07:46:33 PM »
Quote from: "stromboli"
Quote
the oldest manuscripts in existence of various Rabbinical works are quite late. For example the oldest complete manuscript copy of the Babylonian Talmud to survive is dated to 1342 CE.[1]

All of the claims based on legitimacy of scripture and ancient records are highly problematic for this reason. Just as with New Testament sources, the time gap involved between actual events and the so-called written account throws some serious cold water on the authenticity of the records. In addition, there is no way to know how much change has been made over time; records are copies of copies of copies.

The archaeological record does not tell the same story as scripture.

The same way that we square that Alice in Wonderland is historical record.  It is historical record of a drug induced writing session.  Don't know for sure, but it seems to me that it's political propoganda.

Re: Re:
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 07:54:06 PM »
Quote from: "GodvReligion"
Quote from: "stromboli"
Quote
the oldest manuscripts in existence of various Rabbinical works are quite late. For example the oldest complete manuscript copy of the Babylonian Talmud to survive is dated to 1342 CE.[1]

All of the claims based on legitimacy of scripture and ancient records are highly problematic for this reason. Just as with New Testament sources, the time gap involved between actual events and the so-called written account throws some serious cold water on the authenticity of the records. In addition, there is no way to know how much change has been made over time; records are copies of copies of copies.

The archaeological record does not tell the same story as scripture.

The same way that we square that Alice in Wonderland is historical record.  It is historical record of a drug induced writing session.  Don't know for sure, but it seems to me that it's political propoganda.

No, if you want to say that religion and god belief can be equated to Alice and Wonder Land, yes, drug induced.

BUT the writer of Alice and Wonderland was not selling a truth, but a story. It does not matter if the writer of Alice and Wonderland was on something. At least the writer was not trying to sell it as a religion or political party.

Alice and Wonderland is a truth, only in that someone wrote a story, nothing more, no matter what the writer was on at the time of writing the story.

The only thing I wish religion could do is leave their bullshit at the same level.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Re: Just So This Extraordinary Claim Has A Non-Admin Topic..
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 08:02:46 PM »
Quote from: "Sleeper"
Umm... Let's see, Judaism... umm... Oh:

What's to make of this claim that the ancient Jews were actually polytheists?

Writer posted a YouTube video

When you are a baby, you are a spounge. Someone feeds you bullshit and while you grow up your buy it. The lucky ones catch on quickly and reject the crap their parents sell them.

YES, the Jews were a ripoff of prior Canaanite religions, just as Islam is a rip off of those prior.

Just like Joseph Smith ripped off Christianity. Just like Tom Cruise falsely sucks the dick of a dead Si Fi writer.

Posting an hour long refutation to social norms is bullshit because the explanation is simple. PEOPLE MAKE UP GODS! It is that fucking simple. Allah is made up, Jesus is made up, Vishnu is made up, Thor is made up and so are pink unicorns.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 08:13:43 PM »
The first commandment alone is proof enough that the Jews were originally polytheists.

Offline aitm

Re:
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 08:17:25 PM »
Quote from: "Rasputin"
The first commandment alone is proof enough that the Jews were originally polytheists.

that is true, but so very often ignored when I mention it to the believers.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Sleeper (OP)

Re: Just So This Extraordinary Claim Has A Non-Admin Topic..
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 08:25:16 PM »
Quote from: "Brian37"
Quote from: "Sleeper"
Umm... Let's see, Judaism... umm... Oh:

What's to make of this claim that the ancient Jews were actually polytheists?

Writer posted a YouTube video

When you are a baby, you are a spounge. Someone feeds you bullshit and while you grow up your buy it. The lucky ones catch on quickly and reject the crap their parents sell them.

YES, the Jews were a ripoff of prior Canaanite religions, just as Islam is a rip off of those prior.

Just like Joseph Smith ripped off Christianity. Just like Tom Cruise falsely sucks the dick of a dead Si Fi writer.

Posting an hour long refutation to social norms is bullshit because the explanation is simple. PEOPLE MAKE UP GODS! It is that fucking simple. Allah is made up, Jesus is made up, Vishnu is made up, Thor is made up and so are pink unicorns.
K. Watch it or don't -  I was just starting a topic in this topicless forum. To me, it's a pretty interesting topic. The foundation of 3 major, anti-polytheistic religions is grounded in the POLY aspect of theism. This isn't really new to me, but I haven't yet seen it here. What's to complain about? Just don't have the time? Got too many RGIII highlights to masturbate over? She's a Biblical scholar dealing with the earliest evidence, she's demolishing Biblical claims, and she's fucking hot.

Just enjoy, man.
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

Re: Re:
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 08:33:08 PM »
Quote from: "aitm"
Quote from: "Rasputin"
The first commandment alone is proof enough that the Jews were originally polytheists.
that is true, but so very often ignored when I mention it to the believers.
If only more religious people actually took the time to think about their beliefs they would when presented with obvious red flags not so easily ignore it or come up with something to "refute" it with. And nothing is more frustrating than asking a question and having it dodged by be given an answer completely unrelated. >_>

Anyway, back to the Jews.

(No subject)
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 01:51:02 AM »
It was a study of the origins of various religions which eventually got me out of them. I never saw this video before, but I liked it very much. I agree with much of the evidence that she is presenting, which also agrees with much of what I remember from my own studies. I also think she looks good doing it.

If you know anything about Mormonism, they have taken a step back towards polytheism. Many of the beliefs currently held by the Mormons are closer to the polytheistic origins of Judaism. Specifically they believe in a mother goddess who is a consort of the Father, though they don't typically name her or worship her in any way. I was Mormon for some time so it may come out in comments.

It's an interesting topic of discussion that has given me a desire to study further into Anthropology, Philosophy, and Religion.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
~ Arthur C. Clarke